[Archived]

Bill,

I think Liberty’s and Marathon’s are similar in the ‘light switch’ dept. on current units. As I mentioned earlier, we can turn on all ceiling lights and tivoli lights from a light switch bank behind the driver area (also other places in the coach like by the entrance door, hallway and bedroom). If you hold a button, it will dim the light to the level that you want.

Jon must have bought the ‘George and Jane Jetson’ edition from 2006. :o)

We have friends with Marathon’s and we certainly looked at them when we were looking for a ‘new’ build, beautiful coaches. I liked the Lithium Ion battery system in the Liberty and the manual sewer hose. Also, we have a manual water hose too. Totally happy with it. If I’m connecting to shore water, many times I use a 4 ft. hose when convenient. We don’t need to fill or empty tanks at every stop.

Every coach has it’s pluses and minuses. Our aluminum holding tank is not the plus. :o(

Safe travels to all.

Mark

[Kirby]

Seems the discussion has drifted a bit but back on Jon’s original question batch to me. Here are my responses:

1) The two companies I am working with (the one we used in our new coach and one I’ve been working with on retrofits) have both been in existance for 10-20 years. The one we used for the new coach system actually puts their product where it would take 4 hours by air just to get to the site to effect repairs or diagnosis of a problem…pretty bullet-proof I would say. The other has products all over the world and in applications rangine from military, marine, off-road heavy industrial equipment. In all these cases if the products were not pretty much bullet-proof, they wouldn’t be in business still. Just food for thought there.

2) The system we install OEM in production has readily available components and some that are less generic, but not subject to high failure in any way (control electronics) and the power contactors are made by several companies/readily available. The company I am serious about for retrofit has all the control equipment contained within each unit’s case, so there are no extra items besides replacing the incompatible parts of the existing system (those that cannot be adjusted to the range these batteries want for charge, float, and autostart).

3) As far as the question of more or less space needed? That depends on the individual goal of the owner. If the end-game for going to Lithium is to get a real boost out of drycamp time, then it should take up no less space. If the goal is simply the longevity feature of the batteries, you could actually go with less Lithium modules and get exactly what you have for drycamp capacity now, with half the space and a quarter the weight. Or go for more powerful and same number of modules for a 2x or greater jump in capacity and still half the weight. That would be an individual choice, which also effects the pricing question you asked as well. If a person were to elect the same number of modules as you have now, but with greater capacity up to twice, then the cost over time at the moment would be 3 times that of what you currently have, 4 times if you buy your Lifeline’s from TRUK lmao (plug). For this cost, and the average Prevost owner/user, the life expectance is 10 (extreme user)-15 years (average user). At that rate, the cost ratio over a 20-year lifetime would be a wash. Let me add this: at the end of life they do not just short out and burst/blow out or get super hot and gas like all lead acid batteries, including AGMs. They have a decay rate curve. At 15 years they would have half of their original capacity, but would still function normally otherwise. You could keep going without detriment to either the batteries or any coach system for several years after this even. I can see customers down the road with lithium batteries 20+ years old being not uncommon. Hell, I see people with 10 year old Lifeline’s now, but they are starting to blow out and crack the case and gas and heat up. The Lithiums that old won’t have close to the capacity they did when new, but they won’t be hot and gassing and burning up either…

4) As to Tom’s comment about having “Lithium batteries increasing the value of the coach, probably not”…While they may not directly increase the value, they will increase net sale price you get because you most likely won’t have to replace the batteries when you sell the coach. You most likely would when selling with AGM’s. When we sell coaches, we replace tires if over 4-5 years old, batteries if over 3-4 years old,etc. Most people give AGMs 4-5 years of total life. When buying a coach, thanks largely in part to the advise of myself and MANY others on this forum, people don’t want to think they have to replace the batteries or tires a year down the road, so they get replaced at sale. With that in mind, you could upgrade today, in 5 years put your coach up for sale, still have 10 years left on the batteries, and not have to replace them, just pass the coach on without reducing the price or taking less for the coach to restock it with AGMs. Does that make sense?

[Archived]

As Ben knows my remarks were to a great extent influenced by some of the horror stories associated with Li installations in production coaches. Having said that his comments make sense from two perspectives. Assuming over the long term the cost is a wash there is a value in Li because it is not just the cost of the batteries, but the installation cost. If I were to stick to my schedule I would replace three sets of AGM batteries in 15 years and during the 5th year of each cycle I would have a noticeable difference in performance.

Just the convenience of not having a five year schedule has value.

The second plus is weight. If I can get the same or more capacity with 1/4 to 1/2 the weight I not only can expect to see less axle weight, and miniscule improvement in mileage and performance I have less mass that has to be restrained to prevent problems in an accident as we are recently discussing. It is like free lunches.

If such an installation is truly “plug and play” and does away with the complexity and monitoring and logging of date some systems require it would be of great interest especially if it addresses the needs of existing coaches with multiple voltages without a lot of additional devices. Part of my interest is my batteries are buried in the center of the coach so access is difficult which makes battery issues a real pain to diagnose and isolate. It woud be nice to have a battery set up that required little or no access until the end of life.

[Archived]

With that in mind, you could upgrade today, in 5 years put your coach up for sale, still have 10 years left on the batteries, and not have to replace them, just pass the coach on without reducing the price or taking less for the coach to restock it with AGMs. Does that make sense?

All good points Ben. The only comment I can make on the resale is the comfort a potential buyer would have in the confidence his new to him LI system will last another 10 years. Will the manufacturer still be in business, has technology already passed what he just getting ready to buy (5 years old), are components available and the big one, the costs to repair or update if needed. The current system of AGM’s and Inverters is easy to cost out because they’re pretty much the standard and time tested.

Keep on plugging, LI is the future I’m sure and by the time it’s all sorted out I’ll probably be camping at home in my rocking chair. Jon is almost there already.:)

[John]

There are going to be people that embrace new technology that has the promise of better performance or ways to make things easier or more convenient.

Having said that I do not think any of the improvements are of any value unless they are at least as reliable as what we now have, and in fact have even better reliability. I’ll use Lifeline batteries as an example. Those of us that have years of experience with our existing systems know exactly what we have and its limitations. From experience I have learned my Lifelines are going to get 5 years of use, at which time they will barely go through the night without getting down to a low voltage. So at that point I replace them and start the cycle all over again.

I have never had an equalizer failure (I have a 12/24V house) or an inverter failure. So my house battery system has a known service life and as long as I don’t push the limits and try to squeeze another year or two from my batteries I don’t have to do much more than occasionally monitor voltages and my charging cycles.

The owners of production coaches with Li batteries were led to believe their systems were even better and the longer life and ability to rebuild the batteries cheaper than replacing them made the economics work. The reality is the batteries had issues relating to the manufacturer’s quality. Then when they had to be replaced after as little as 5 years it was learned the design had changed, they were not rebuildable, and instead of just replacing a failed or damaged battery the entire set had to be replaced at a rather breathtaking cost.

So being a cynic I would first want to see a set of 15 year old batteries that are exactly like the new ones I would consider installing. That would give me some comfort knowing the product has the promised life, and more importantly it shows there will be a means of getting a direct replacement.

Then I would run some numbers. Lifeline batteries are the same today as they were when I first started buying them. Same dimensions, same battery posts, and the company has been around for a long time. Would the Li battery manufacturer have a similar history? And if so what is the initial cost and how long would I plan to own the coach? As a group we are not shy about spending money to improve our coaches, but the improvements have to be tangible. The only immediate and measurable benefit of going to Li is weight savings and more energy storage per pound or cubic inch. The way I use my coach I would be willing to pay for that benefit, but I need proof the benefit is not going to be offset by poor reliability or lack of future service or availability.

[Tom]

Ben;

I may be interested in the dc roof airs and possibly some solar panels or solar film on the roof.

[Archived]

Michael,

Get with me and we can further discuss what you would like.

ben@parliamentcoach.com

Thanks.