[Ron]

Ben,

I have read extensively regarding Li since I thought I wanted to add the long range fuel to my coach. The advantage of going to Li is I replace the AGM batteries of 640# and replace them with about 200# of Li. I could then relocate the Li to the first bay and in the space vacated add the fuel tank. Weight would go up but it seemed manageable.

Where I stopped short was when I tried to justify all that was entailed, from both a cost perspective and the actual benefit of having to spend less time at a fuel stop.

Since that was several years ago I presume some things have changed. Costs certainly have come down. As the technology matures I presume reliability has gone up. At this point I believe the coaches have crossed the line from user friendly to complexity for the sake of complexity (showing off).

So with that background here are my questions and concerns. Will an upgrade be more reliable than the seemingly bulletproof AGM / inverter set up we now have in pre-Li coaches? I know my costs associated with my coach are almost exclusively limited to 4 8D batteries every 5 years. What would the initial cost and ongoing cost of an Li system equivalent to what I have be?

An Li system has a lot of devices not in evidence on my system which is probably typical of most conversions. With the exception of an equalizer that I have, what devices would be needed to safely operate and control an Li system and is there any service history that would suggest those devices have lives measured in decades like what we have today? If you sense I am concerned about reliability it is a given. Future availability and support is also critical. The original Li system on some coaches is now out of date and a problem with an Li battery means all batteries and associated hardware have to be replaced. The cost is breathtaking. Any upgrade needs to be such WW Grainger will be carrying parts forever.

Would the Li system need more or less space?

I have 4 Cruiseairs. They are a known product with a decent track record. You suggest other types of AC units. Would they be a split system? I know there are new technology split systems with low current draw, but my idea of ideal is not as much based on current draw but noise level and reliability. With the Cruiseair evaporators currently in place I get some fan noise that is acceptable, but if a lower power draw was available instead of running two units, I could run all four and each evaporator’s fan speed would be lower making a significant difference in noise level. Practical? Cost? Roof airs are out of the question.

Since I am done tweaking most things on my coach to give me features I consider important I am left with features I find annoying. Crestron may be nice, and it may be improved by going to ipads, but would be really nice is just a simple switch to do things I want to do. I don’t want to have to go to a Crestron remote just to open a pocket door or turn on a light over the sink. I want switches where I need switches. Is that practical or is the cost to do that unjustifiable? Whether it is Crestron or ipads or whatever I cannot see how going through different screens to turn on a light or lock a door or do other simple tasks is better than a small bank of switches near where the task needs to be. In other words is there a way to go backwards to the good old days when there were switches where we needed them, and that my switch to turn on a light did not open or close my neighbors shades? And one more thing. Can the system be made so I don’t have to have it programmed? I don’t want to find out in 10 years the system is no longer supported and it needs to be “upgraded”.

[Deleted User]

Ben, a couple of years ago I talked with Lithionics Battery (in your neck of the woods) about a battery system that with some programing changes to my Magnum inverters would be a simple modification and cost effective. Apparently they worked with Inverter Service Center (in my red neck of the woods) to refine the charging programing and achieved some decent success.

A simple change like this would appeal to the masses even though it is far from the total electrical system you have designed for your new coach.

I guess my thoughts are to provide a tiered level of modifications/upgrades. Get us hooked with some entry level of upgrade and the upsell us to the good stuff that excites you.

[Per]

I like your ideas Ben, but I think it would all boil down to the price point. We know everyone is looking for the day when you can just drop in some Ion equivalent 4D or 8D, change the inverters and away you go, but right now that’s not possible without other modifications to the total electrical system.

So I think a complete electrical upgrade to include Ion would not be for everyone because of cost, some would probably be interested just to have the latest and greatest. Would an upgrade increase the value of a used coach to offset the cost, I don’t think so. If an owner is going to keep his bus for long period of time, maybe 10 plus years, then the upgrade cost may make sense for that person. Again, it all comes down to the mighty dollar.

[Ron]

Ben, I appreciate you are looking at offering upgrades to electrical systems on older coaches as a option for owners, and for some that may be tempting if they do extensive dry-camping. For us, we hardly ever dry-camp (having said that we are currently dry-camping with a bunch of nice PC folks in Driggs, ID). Our normal mode of operation is to find a campground with 50 Amps and hook-ups, we don’t run our ACs on inverters at all. While driving we run the generator if we run CruiseAirs, or we use OTR AC. We love our CruiseAirs, they are an order of magnitude quieter than roof ACs, and any system making more noise would not appeal. Also, weight savings by going to LI batteries would not be significant enough to warrant the expense in a coach that weighs more than 50k pounds.

Don’t want to throw cold water on your ideas, I read the piece you poster earlier on your system for your new coaches, and I commend you for wanting to make improvements in the way coaches are set up, but I wanted to give you our perspective on electrical upgrades.

[Archived]

Ben, your comment “greater dry-camping capacity, reduced generator run time, reduced load and dependency on shore power, etc.” is right up my alley and something I am hoping to achieve next year but I don’t think that I would want to pay what your system would likely cost. At this moment, I am looking to have AM Solar install 1,200 AH of LFP plus about 1,000 W of solar next summer when we are in Oregon. I am hoping that the cost will come in in the low $20k’s since I aready own the inverters. It can be done for less if I was willing to do most of the work but I am not. Keep in mind that my coach’s house dc system is strictly 12 vdc. I’m fine with running the generator for using the cooktop or the A/C’s but using our combi washer/dryer is out of the question due to the water requirements. I do not like running the generator in a pristine area where I am seeking peace and quiet just to properly charge the AGM batteries – that is just us. We plan on boondocking more than simply drycamping. With this setup I can also leave the coach in a storage yard or BLM site without having to worry about plugging in while we take a backpacking trip or in a storage yard if we decide to spend a month abroad.

I agree and disagree with some of the above comments. In my opinion, only the person making the decision can decide if the expenditure is worth it to them, regardless of how much it is as this is very much a personal choice. There are enough Li systems in use now that reliabilty is no longer a concern for me. We will be going full time at the end of the year when we will retire and I suspect that our lifestyle is different than most so our needs are different than most and this investment/expense is worth it to us. We bought a relatively simple coach and we plan to keep it simple except where it might enhance or simplify other aspects of our lifestyle.

I’m not sure if this helps but at least you have another opinion and some numbers.

[John]

Ben,

If you recall our bus and thge upgrades we had done you know that what you are asking is right down my alley. If the option had been made available we would have done LiPO4 and some solar as we had already spent 100k on everything else, including new Outback inverters. Liberty refused to wire an air conditioner to an inverter but that is still of interest to me. With LiPO4 batteries of 9-1200 hours I could at least run one overnight without the generator….at least that’s what people doing it on the boat forums say. I’d pay $15-20k for this option.

Solar is a different story. It’s much cheaper now than it was and will get better still, but 1200w or so is still probably going to cost $10k. If you can get that closer to $6k I would be in.

Can you program inverters already in-place to handle lithium batteries? If so, that is a leg up with saving a bunch of money and makes it easier to pull the trigger.

[Tim]

looking on this from automotive stand point tech availability, $ 4500 should do it…

[Chip & Pam]

Sawbonz,

If your inverters can be programmed to charge with constant current and voltage they are probably fine with LFP batteries. The battery manufacturer would be your best source to be sure.

[Archived]

Sawbonz,

As Jon has pointed out, you may need more than just the right inverters to be able to use LFP batteries. My coach is pretty simple so it would require little modifications. I just wanted to make sure that you did not get the wrong impression.

Andy

[Roscoeapproved]

A lithium battery system adapted for our coaches is more complex than a pair of inverters, maybe an equalizer, and some batteries. What we currently have is as basic as we can get. With Li you are going to need devices like balancers, voltage monitors and possibly even temperature alarms. It is likely you will need some type of converter to deal with the 12 and 24 volt systems. The system is going to involve programming.

Li has been around a while now, but it does not seem the systems including solar have yet matured meaning there is still a great risk of obsolescence as new and better batteries and devices are developed. Our current systems are not affected by that because both the batteries and inverters are mature technologies, and while improvements continue to be made we can still go out and buy “drop in” replacements from multiple sources.

What nobody mentions is an analysis of costs. While there is something appealing about having the latest technology, especially if it can provide measurable improvements over the existing systems at some point the economics will emerge as part of the consideration. We are already beginning to see this as coaches that used the latest technology when they were built, are now reaching the point where that technology is no longer supported. The bottom line then becomes a more expensive coach or system initially, and likely one that needs more expensive repairs or maintenance during its life, followed by a very expensive cost to replace a system no longer supported. Anyone who has had to spend serious money to have a system reprogrammed just because they wanted to replace a TV, or a dash, or to replace the underlying computer system knows that. What is worse is technology is moving so fast a lot of devices are obsolete almost when they hit the market.

---

Jeff and Lindsay

91 Marathon XL

[Tom]

I’m still trying to understand the technology in my old “90”. I’ll let you technocrats figure this one out.

[Mark]

Jon,

As someone who has rebuilt and updated a beautiful 1950 Ford that makes no rational sense at all, you surely understand that sometimes it doesn’t have to make financial sense to just “make sense”.

[Andre]

My objection is taking already complex and difficult to service coaches and making them worse in the respect that they are more prone to failure, more difficult to service, have a shorter useful life, and except for being able to open the bay door locks with a cell phone really do not provide a measurable benefit.

I have mentioned it before, but it bears repeating. Just to open the pocket door next to the refrigerator I have to open the plexiglass door over the electrical panel. I have to poke the Crestron monitor to wake it up. I have to find the button to poke to open the page that has the pocket door open/close command on it, and finally after looking at a screen with about 20 buttons I do locate the right one so I can open the door.

If I was on the other side of the door all I would have to do is push the button right next to the door.

If the electrical upgrade never involved anything more complex than pushing a button or switch right next to the task you want to accomplish like turning on a light, opening a door, adjusting a temperature, etc. I am all for it but these “upgrades” add another layer of complexity and actually make it frustratingly difficult to do even the simple things.

We are from different schools of thought regarding what constitutes an upgrade.

I agree it is tough to justify a rebuilt 50 Ford, but it is one of our toads and we just priced a new Jeep Grand Cherokee to use as our next toad when we have to replace the 12 year old Hummer and found out we have far less invested in the Ford than in a new GC.

[Archived]

Jon, sounds like you would have been happier with a Country Coach, Beaver or a Royale. My understanding is that these are closer to a flip phone than a Crestron system but I’m sure you know that better than I. You may not get your OTR air or polished _____ (you can fill in the blank) and certainly no rose petals, but you would have a less complex system for a lot less money but I also doubt that you would have been as satisfied. Sometimes it is just not about the money but the enjoyment/satisfaction you derive from your ______ (fill in the blank). I, as most, can list a quite a few things that I own that have no ROI such as a camera and lenses, fly fishing stuff, race bicycles etc… but it is what I enjoy. Some might appreciate some of these items and some would simply scratch their heads and that is ok. LFP batteries and solar may not make financial sense but it may, if I keep the coach long enough, and it would add some complexity but if the systems work well, they will simplify my life and I feel comfortable with the technology. Will there be hiccups? Probably, but not anymore than I can already expect from an almost 20 year old Prevost.

There will be some that will embrace Parliments latest technology (I personally have no idea what that is) and some that will scratch their heads – and that is ok. I wish Ben luck in determining the market size for what he would like to offer the Prevost community.

[Darrell]

Thank you all for the input and feedback. What I am proposing is power system upgrading. We have not touched the issue yet of ipad electronics control. That is CERTAINLY another possible area we have become very familiar with. Our approach, for anyone who has seen or owned one of our coaches, is that control systems are always to be an “add-on,” not a replacement for, the regular switches and controls in a coach. The way of looking at it is that the electronics and AV equipment will always need changed as technology changes, so treat the “control system” do the same. Crestron equipment becomes obsolete about every 7 years with non-backwards compatible new equipment. So when you change the tv’s and vcr to a smart tv and bluray, change what controls them at that time as well. It will most likely be necessary. Lighting control should remain more timeless so that all of that still works regardless of the remote you pick up to change the channel. This philosophy has served us well so far and that is the approach we intend to continue. We always have a manual override, a backup or work-around for everything possible in coaches we design and build, and so our remodels or updates follow the same philosophy.

As far as power system upgrading goes, I am not saying gut everything and replace with all that we put into our new coach. The total system including DC generator and batteries, converters, 48v alternators, and all associated equipment would cost over $100k, plus all the labor to accomplish. All of that is not absolutely necessary to get the benefits of longer-lasting and greater capacity Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. Our DC roof airs, at half the noise level and half the electrical load of a Dometic, are not absolutely necessary, but they do improve further the dry-camping length of time. I know there are people with Cruisair ac’s that would never want to part with them even though they are space hogs and inefficient and ever increasingly expensive to repair/replace. That has always been a given for me.

TrigGuy, I believe we can do a lot better than the AM Solar setup you are looking at having put in, both in cost and overall servicability of the system. I looked into Victron energy a long time ago and found their way of approaching Lithium was incredibly cumbersome and space-robbing, but that is my opinion. We can discuss further if you are interested. Do you have a lot of roof real estate? That is the limiting factor for the amount of solar panels you want installed. For a Country Coach that lacks the ability to run roof airs or high load items like laundry and cooktop, combined with the amount of space you have for batteries, you could have a large boondocking reserve of battery power. 🙂 Do you still have the original Freedom 25 inverter/chargers in your coach or have they been changed to something else? If so, to what? Heart inverters are not adjustable like many others as far as charging points. I am still evaluating whether or not those can be used or if they would need replaced with Magnums. I’ll let you know on that.

Sawbonz, I am trying to place and remember your coach. Do you have a lot of rooftop real estate for that much solar? We are talking 6-7 panels that are roughly 2 ft x 5 ft in size. If it is a Liberty, you have the best shot at having that much room up there since no rooftop ac’s or roof-mounted awnings back then. Is your coach a Classis or Elegant? (The distinction being 12v or 24v house lighting loads). Finally, where are the batteries located on your coach? Thanks again for all of your input!