-
Driving Assistance or Self Driving Vehicles
-
According to Tom, if I ever got a smart phone, and equally important actually turned it on somebody would be making a fortune selling snowmobile suits in Hell.
Typical phone conversation between Tom and Di:
Tom: Is Jon home?
Di: No, he is running errands
Tom: Does he have his phone with him?
Di: I think so.
Tom: Is it turned on?
Di: I don’t know. That is anybody’s guess.
Those who guessed it was not turned on win free dues for the year. Those who guessed it was turned on have to pay double dues for a year.
-
This has been an interesting exchange supported by logic and practical experiences. I would be interested in statistics but not enough to the leg work. I agree with Jon about the distracted drivers and that is why I stopped riding a motorcycle. Lets start with a simple statistic that we can all agree on, as much as we would all like to be sharing the roads exclusively with Jon clones (referring only to his need to constantly improve his driving skills), statistically speaking, what are the chances that will ever happen?
I think that we have all heard the statistic that planes are safer than cars and that seems to still be the case (I lied, I did look that statistic up.). So you may not like the new plane technology but statistically, you are still safer flying. The Air France Flight 447 Airbus A330 that was in the article Jon referenced included this description of the planes technology: “This makes it very hard to crash an A330, and the plane had a superb safety record: there had been no crashes in commercial service in the first 15 years after it was introduced in 1994.” So statistically speaking, is this good or bad as it relates to planes that would have been flown instead of the A330 had the A330 not have been developed? Put another way, is this a safer airplane then its predecessors? Regardless of the reason for the crash, this is the real question and probably the best way to determine if we are going forward or backwards in terms of flying safer. Of course, we should always be learning and improving to make things safer.
I see this same type of argument regarding cars. Will the technology in cars make the roads safer? I don’t know, but if there are no improvements to curtail distracted drivers it sure seems like technology will be an improvement. If something goes wrong and the driver freezes, are we better off with the new technology or just having the distracted driver without the technology? I suspect that eventually we will have those statistics.
I wonder if Jon’s incident after the seminar would have occurred had the other vehicle been an autonomous vehicle? This is a case of a very skilled defensive driver being forced to take evasive action because of a driver with who knows what kind of skills, could not negotiate a turn within the space allotted to him.
Sorry if some feel that you are losing control of your vehicle but I for one would embrace any technology that will make our roads safer. I get it that this is up for debate and we should all strive to improve our skills because that also contributes to making the roads safer but don’t expect others to do the same.
-
That type of conversation is old news, Di and I have narrowed it down to this:
Tom – Hi Di is dickhead home
Di – Nope running errands
Tom – OK, I’ll call back during happy hour
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cv2ud1339E
Some say it was caused by technology(fly-by-wire), others say it was pilot error.
The learning curve of “Driving Assistance or Self Driving Vehicle technology” may be ugly?
Can it get any uglier than it is now?
-
This is a clear indication of what happens when someone responsible lacks or loses the most basic skills as a result of reliance on systems designed to keep people safe.
Every pilot on here probably couldn’t believe the pilot made such a basic mistake, but if you never get an opportunity to maintain the basic skills and reactions to conditions this is a perfect example of what will happen. It should be noted both pilots were “low time” and likely never earned their stripes flying aircraft that actually required the pilot(s) to hand fly.
Initially automobile systems are going to improve safety because most drivers had to learn to drive on cars that did not drive for them. As they are replaced by drivers that never had to develop basic skills because the cars could do it for them we are going to have problems like the accident below.
-
I knew Marvin when he was a kid, grew up in Shenandoah Iowa, he graduated with my first wife. Just saw his sister right before we left on our winter adventure. He was a nice guy, I was astounded when I found out he was piloting the Colgan flight.
-
Speaking as a Monday morning quarterback as PIC he made two serious errors. The first brought him to the ultimate cause of the accident and that was icing.
All of my early years flying were in the lee of Lake Erie flying out of Jamestown NY where it is one of the greatest air frame ice producing areas of the country. Airframe ice is very bad and pilots learn or should learn the three rules relating to icing forecasts and reports.
Rule #1….don’t go into icing conditions.
Rule #2….If you get into icing, get out. Immediately.
Rule #3….If you are dumb enough to ignores rules #1 and #2 understand your only remaining option is to place your life in control of the successful operation of the aircraft anti icing and de-icing systems.
Icing conditions do not necessarily mean the flight cannot be conducted safely, but it means the pilot has to plan how he is going to avoid or cope with icing if it should occur.
That flight got into icing and both pilots were aware of and discussing it. Icing destroys lift so it is imperative the pilots do everything possible to avoid a stall (the plane quits flying in a stall).
But instead when a stall was imminent in a plane well equipped to not only deal with ice, but to warn of a stall the pilot flying made the absolute worse choice of action by pulling back on the stick and it was at that point the flight was lost.
This relates to driving skills also. Some driving conditions require a driver to respond in the exact manner required to deal with a situation. That could be everything from wheel lock up to a skid on black ice to loss of control in a turn. I am not suggesting every drive go to the local Walmart parking lot to see how the car reacts when it starts to skid, but I am suggesting a driver anticipate issues, plan ahead and to react automatically when something happens As an alternative a driver has to make certain he never ever puts himself in a position where he needs those skills.
That means if he has had no recent hands on experience and one of the safety systems on the vehicle quits he has to take control and make absolutely certain he either knows how to prevent or get out of a skid, prevent or handle emergency braking, or is prepared to park to wait for the car to be repaired.
It did not help that both Colgin pilots were not concentrating on the flight. They were both busy discussing their inexperience with weather instead of concentrating solely on flying. They let the autopilot bring them almost up to the stall, and then when the AP was disconnected they themselves stalled the plane. I cannot think of a better lesson to teach people the cost of distracted control of a vehicle.
-
I am reminded of the actual law suit filed back in the 2005 era when a man had purchased a new RV with cruise control. According to the alleged suit, as he left the dealership and was making his way home on the highway, he set the cruise control and literally got up to go get a cup of coffee.
You can guess what happened. According the “law lore,” he sued the dealership and prevailed because they had inadequately instructed him on the use of the RV. I can only imagine the forthcoming law suits.
On this subject of “self driving cars” … I was driving down the street yesterday and a Japanese lady had her child in a stroller stopped at the stop sign on my SE corner of the intersection. I motioned for her to proceed and she did ….yet went from the SE corner sidewalk across to the NW corner…. in clearer words, she cut across the intersection. That is not how pedestrians function in Houston.
I literally wondered at the time how a self-driving vehicle would have made the choice for her to go across and how would it advise her of the decision to be polite. In addition, if a self driving car was on each corner, how would they communicate their intentions among themselves to be able to know danger was in the midst of the intersection? More importantly, how would all of the vehicles react to the irrational decision of the lady to cut across the intersection?
I’m just asking… do not really know the answer…
Pres
-
I have enjoyed reading the conversation back and forth without really having a strong opinion either way. I like to know about new technology and I like to read other peoples experiences with it but I am normally a slow adapter.
My brother forced a computer into my life in the mid 90’s. He said it was the future and I needed to get with the program. A job forced a pager on me about the same time. Another job forced a cell phone on me in 99.
They were all correct. The advances that were forced on me, helped me compete and in a lot of ways made my life easier. I was an early adapter (for once) to smart phones and although there are times I would like to throw it in the river, it makes our road lives a whole lot easier and more convenient.
The new features on cars and buses are a moot point to me. I am driving my “last” bus and I usually buy older cars to tow behind so many of the new features will take years to trickle down to me.
I had an eye opening experience in our car tonight. We were driving home from flat farm country through a snow squall and very heavy wind. I am experienced driving in snow for 35 years. Certainly not upstate New York experience, but I have driven in snow every year for all my driving years.
We were driving about 30 MPH in near white out conditions but mostly clear pavement. We were going through 2″-6″ drifts and wind gusts every half mile or so.
Then the wind really picked up and the snow was suddenly drifted deeper across the road. There were cars in the opposite lane and they were swerving into our lane and off the road. I let off the gas, avoided the brake and was trying to stay in my lane.
We were sliding toward the ditch and other cars and then my little car started making all kinds of beeps and noises. I have no idea what feature it has but while beeping it straightened in my lane and when the white out and drifting was passed, we were back on clear pavement and cars behind us were in the ditches.
I consider myself a safe and capable driver (My guess is most people view themselves the same way) but I was on my way to the ditch but some feature on my 2006 Scion Xb saved the day.
You guys know me, I am quick to thank God for everything and give Him credit. But some of the credit this time goes to whatever feature was going crazy in my car tonight.
I guess you can color me some where in the middle on this conversation. I want to be the best driver I can be. I want to stay alert and keep my driving skills sharp. However, when things go out of my control and some automatic feature can assist me, I will take it. Other wise me and my two girls were going to the ditch tonight.
It was way too cold for that!
Davy
-
Great Post Davy. Your post struck a cord with me because your introduction into technology was almost exactly the same as mine word for word. Also the part about being somewhat slow to adapt rings true. I think this thread was as much about the possible unintended consequences of technology as the usefulness and benefits of it. The unintended consequences may be closer to the conscience for those who cannot realise the immediate benefits of these gadgets for lack of proficiency or natural aptitude for it. I will admit this plays a large role in my reluctance to embrace it.
This discussion closely parallels politics in that many are on one side or the other and there is nothing anyone can say or do to change the others views. The voices of the extreme are the only ones that are heard. The people in the middle tend to refrain from entering the discussion because their opinions seem bland. They are sometimes dismissed because their contributions will not do anything to move the ball one way or the other. I noted these exact same traits in this discussion.
It was nice to hear from someone who is somewhere in the middle. Your articulate post made me realise that I am also closer to an extremely cautious optimism on technology than my original position of totally against it.
I am glad your trip ended safely for you and your family Davy. Great story and thanks for posting it.
Merry Christmas
-
What Davy’s car had was electronic stability control. It is a feature on almost every car today and on late model Prevost coaches.
It did what it was supposed to do which is to prevent an out of control slide or skid. And yes I think it is a great feature, but not a replacement for a driver that should be working very hard to avoid it from ever having to engage. Davy’s situation was a perfect example of a condition that happens in the blink of an eye and before he could react the system was at work.
As long as a driver does not rely on the system to salvage an error in judgment it is a great tool.
-
Thank you, Jeff. It was quite a ride home last night.
Thank you for explaining what happened, Jon. I had no idea the old Green Machine had any features like that beyond ABS.
You also noted:
As long as a driver does not rely on the system to salvage an error in judgment it is a great tool.So I am guessing it would be an error in judgment to go next door and do snow inspired donuts in the church parking lot to see if I can get all the car’s bells and whistles to kick in again?
Davy
-
Actually I believe everyone should go to a safe spot and see how their vehicle reacts at or near the limit, not to become race drivers or push beyond one’s ability, but to practice reacting to situations that are abnormal.
An empty snow covered parking lot is a great place to see how to respond to a skid. With rear wheel drive cars most of the time the correct action to a loss of traction is to let off the gas, but on front wheel drive cars the same loss of traction might require adding more gas. Few of us ever push our cars to the limit so we just can’t be assured of the correct response when it does happen which is why I agree with the addition of stability control.
-
This is an interesting story pertaining to this topic that provides insight on where the manufacturers are heading with new technologies. Yes, comments welcomed:
-
What Davy’s car had was electronic stability control. It is a feature on almost every car today and on late model Prevost coaches.
It did what it was supposed to do which is to prevent an out of control slide or skid. And yes I think it is a great feature, but not a replacement for a driver that should be working very hard to avoid it from ever having to engage.
Jon, at this point nothing replaces the often defective “nut behind the wheel” part of the driving equation. Looking back when ESC first appeared on select vehicles naysayers were quick to call these features “nannies.” I can only wonder in the years since implementation how many lives have been saved.
Log in to reply.