[Harry]

I’m sure this will be an interesting thread and one that will contain various opinions.

I’d like to point out that just like other automotive conveniences we take for granted today, semi-autonomous driving will take a while to evolve and with each passing generation, new features will surely be unveiled.

Just like seat belts that didn’t appear on cars for decades and went from being optional to mandatory equipment, we’re at the point where enhanced safety features are starting to appear on many vehicles…including busses. As a comparison my first car included a dual seat belt system that had both a lap and a shoulder harness that were separately attached. Today, cars have adaptive systems that buffer the area in front, give warnings to the sides and have the ability to provide emergency braking faster and more effectively that most drivers. One of my vehicles can even allow for hands-off driving for 15 seconds before issuing a warning to apply pressure to the steering wheel. Some models allow for near autonomous driving.

As an example, when cruise control was first introduced, it was controversial and only found on higher end vehicles. Today it’s common among many models. Many decades later, laser or radar systems were incorporated into cruise control systems that created an adaptive style cruise control. This has already proven to be a safety features and the government has mandated that automatic braking will be mandatory by 2022. Why? Because it reduces the change of fatal crashes and saves lives. This is how technology evolves.

Today, we have more sophisticated systems that allow vehicles to speed up, slow down or brake when needed. Some cars already have cameras that keep a vehicle in its lane. Because most accidents can be avoided and the fact that advanced systems can react and process information faster than the driver, it seems the goal is to reduce accidents and fatalities. I’m sure you remember when seat belts were an option.

If planes are crashing because systems fail and pilots lack skills I can only imagine the chaos when we have highways filled with unskilled drivers riding in cars that have a significant potential to have system failures, unlike planes that have clearly defined routes, specific limitations, two “drivers”, constant training, and high quality maintenance.

I’ll refer to Jon’s remarks (above) and ask that without the various safety systems found in today’s aircraft, do you think there would be more or fewer mid-air collisions?

I’ll add that in many cases, these systems provide a warning before they fail and like some devices found on modern motorhomes, redundancies are incorporated that lessen the effects of a failure. But I can only imagine the amount of air crashes that could occur in today’s skies without the aid of electronic safety features.

When it comes to aircraft, while I’m not a pilot, I’ve often sat in the co-pilots seat while wearing headphones that allow me to listen in on the tower and plane to plane conversations while looking at the navigation screens. It seems that even with pre-determined routes, that planes often need to navigate around weather and around other aircraft that may not have the level of sophisticated controls as the one that I’m flying in. I’ve heard a few times when the tower is scolding a pilot for not following the rules and ordered back to the airport. So the specific limitations that pilots have do have similarities to today’s drivers as no two pilots, like no two drivers, are alike.

[Andy]

Jon, you are not alone in this belief. I had a 2015 Yukon Denali with collision avoidance technology in it. It would hit the brakes if it thought you were going to collide with something in front of you. Only problem was that it was not smart enough to not try to stop when it did not need to. There is a street I travel on fairly often that has a railroad crossing in it. When I would come up to the crossing from one direction, the Yukon would hit the brakes fairly hard and then release them. From the other direction, nothing happened. I finally figured out that it saw the rails and thought it was another vehicle that was stopped. The fix? I turned that feature off.

I don’t need a nanny in my car. Just like I don’t need the government telling me how to live my life. I am fine doing it myself.

[Archived]

Although it pains me to do so, I’m with Jon on this one! I understand the advanced technology aspect and as they’re developed are included to make our lives better. But so often the better part’s an open question.

I offer as exhibit 1. The push buttons within the horn area of the Edsel.

I offer as exhibit 2. The gas fill location of the 1957 Chevy behind the left taillight.

And I offer as exhibit 3 the essence of perfection Santa’s slay: Ergonomically perfect, lit by Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer’s nose, handles unlimited gifts, never misses an address (as long as you’ve not been naughty) and able to land anywhere on anything!

Please NO Bah Humbug…

Harry

[Gerald]

I have to say that I do embrace the new technology.

The new MKX has ‘lane control’ as it will help me stay in my lane (if needed). You certainly can override it by tugging on the wheel and it can be turned off.

I wanted to test it recently and I took my hands off the steering wheel so that the car could slowly veer towards the fog line. A warning came up, ‘please keep your hands on the steering wheel’.

The ‘lane control’ feature is nice because on dark roads in the rain, the sensors can see the lines where I might not.

Another feature I like is that the bumper sensors can ‘sense’ a couple a hundred feet on either side. If I’m in a parking lot, it will sense a car coming down the lane and warn me. I do like the extra set of ‘eyes’.

Safe travels,

Mark

[Gerald]

This appeared in the Washington Post today and relates to electric vehicles. While this is not a good thing for mechanics, it could mean fewer trips to the shop for consumers.

As a wave of electric vehicles quickly approaches, experts say, it could wash away a large portion of a skilled labor group that has been around for decades: the neighborhood auto mechanic.

The reason is simple: Unlike gas-powered engines, electric engines don’t require oil changes, have far fewer moving parts and rarely break down, eliminating much of the maintenance that repair shops rely on. The latest electric vehicles can be serviced using parts purchased online or fixed remotely through over-the-air updates.

The U.S. auto repair industry employs about 750,000 workers, nearly four times the number of people employed by the coal-mining industry. Though they are increasingly skilled and tech-savvy, many experts say, they are not prepared for the end of gas-powered transportation.

Back to the conversation about autonomous driving enhancements, having owned multiple generations of vehicles with adaptive cruise control, I can say that based on the manufacturer, there have been some notable improvements in just the past few years. In 2015 I owned an Infiniti QX that used a system that I’ll categorize as garbage. I traded for a Hyundai Equus and it was reliable. I’m driving a new Volvo XC-90 and it includes not only an advanced adaptive cruise control, it has an auto-steering feature that, while not perfect, it’s pretty good. It differs between lane keeping assistance features by using cameras to keep the SUV between the lines and actually steers the vehicle…some systems use individual braking to keep the vehicle within the lane. Does it work in every scenario? Nope. But it won’t activate unless the conditions are favorable and alerts the driver when it can’t be used.

In remote areas, fully autonomous vehicles are currently in testing on remote stretches of highways. With Tesla’s recent announcement, I have no doubt that every truck and motorhome manufacturer are now exploring how to incorporate these enhanced safety features along with electric motors into their offerings. I am looking forward to the day when these systems are smart enough to reduce the “pucker factor” of navigating over a tight bridge that only has a few inches of clearance on each side.

[Archived]

Andy, Please don’t take this the wrong way, but as a non-pilot you cannot appreciate how allowing planes to fly themselves has eroded pilot skills to the point that there have been enough incidents and fatal accidents that the FAA has mandated basic flight training for pilots taking recurrent training.

I am never getting into another plane because when something goes wrong (and it will) I have zero confidence the pilots possess basic flying skills.

Don’t even try to compare seat belts that have zero impact on driving with automatic features that actually do the work of the pilot or driver. I am talking about steering wheel holders that will lose positional awareness, the skills needed to control a car, anticipation, etc.

Planes have all kinds of back up and still systems fail. When they do the cockpit annunciator panel looks like a Christmas tree. But if the pilot is so unskilled he is in over his head the outcome will not be pretty.

Not every flight is routine, but dealing with the modifications due to weather or traffic is routine. There are no surprises in aviation unless they are related to pilot skills or lack of them. Procedures are written for every contingency. Controllers know their limits. Pilots are supposed to know their plane and its limits. There are spacing regulations and pilots get vectors or different altitudes routinely. But if you are a pilot and you spend 99% of the flight letting the computers fly the plane you quickly lose the hand eye coordination and muscle memory that makes hand flying as routine as walking.

When cars in a much more complex and less controlled environment take control from you because you have an important text to read or send you fall into the same trap. You keep mentioning the benefit you see is the protection it affords you to the inattentive driver that might otherwise rear end your car or bus. If you already screw with your “gadets” while driving you are that driver. I just hope your car is not behind me when the car’s computer takes a nap because it will take you too long to have to think about what to do next because you lost your skills that make driving automatic and safe.

[Chas]

The concern I have with autonomous anything is lack of software quality. Complex systems cannot be completely tested, untested failure scenarios are lurking just below the surface. It is one thing for a web site to crash during a software update or for Facebook to screw up your time-line; failure of mission-critical system software is another thing entirely. Don’t get me started on the artificial intelligence (AI) hype.

On the other hand, if you have watched a few of the dash cam video crash collections on youtube, it is clear that humans do not know how to drive. Automation will not have to be very good to improve on our wetware.

[Dick]

Dont worry. The software will be built by the lowest bidder.

[Dick]

I am never getting into another plane because when something goes wrong (and it will) I have zero confidence the pilots possess basic flying skills.

When cars in a much more complex and less controlled environment take control from you because you have an important text to read or send you fall into the same trap. You keep mentioning the benefit you see is the protection it affords you to the inattentive driver that might otherwise rear end your car or bus. If you already screw with your “gadets” while driving you are that driver. I just hope your car is not behind me when the car’s computer takes a nap because it will take you too long to have to think about what to do next because you lost your skills that make driving automatic and safe.

Jon, here’s something to think about:

You’re already sharing the road with semi-autonomous vehicles and not everyone is using this technology to text behind the wheel. When you stop and think about it, there were rear-end accidents well before the invention of the cell phone. Granted, more distractions in the cars mean more potential accidents. Heck, when I was learning to drive, before I turned the ignition key my Dad would require the seat belt to be fastened and the AM radio turned off as he felt that was an unneeded distraction for a new driver.

I had a conversation with the techs at Marathon recently. I’m of the opinion the dash mounted Crestron controller is distracting. My personal opinion is that a unit that’s compatible with Apple CarPlay would be more appropriate as you can use your voice to control the inputs. (Hey Siri, Tune To CNBC). I’m just glad the AC fan controls use real buttons and not delegated to an on-screen controller.

While it’s clear you’re not a fan of technology, I’m curious if you thought that anti-lock brakes were a good thing when they first started appearing on cars? If you think about it, ABS was a precursor to autonomous cars as it was designed to provide braking in a more efficient method that most are capable of performing.

I truly hope that if an inattentive driver is behind you, their car has a collision braking system.

[Tim]

You guys are wearing me out, I have zilch with adaptive driving in anything, but I’m sure impressed with my new Brookstone wine bottle opener that knows when the cork is removed.

Maybe one day I’ll have something to drive with adaptive something and based on the dumb ass moves I see daily on the highway, it sure couldn’t hurt. Maybe there will even be a heads up display one day that the guy in front of you can see with the middle finger proudly displayed.

For my fellow pilots, squawk 1200, it’s CAVU.

[Archived]

Andy,

ABS was created to help less than proficient drivers. Tom and I and others like Mark spent a lot of years and miles driving extensively in the snow belts of our respective regions. We did this long before ABS on roads that were slippery and snow covered for a lot of months of the year.

You either learned to modulate the brakes on your car, truck or bus to avoid lock up or you were going for an uncontrolled skid. A locked wheel cannot assist in braking or steering so to help those who were too lazy or dumb to learn how to drive the manufacturers created ABS.

Here is a news flash…….your ABS will fail. There are a lot of posts on here from folks whose coaches have an ABS light on the dash and it is lit. They now have a conventional braking system and you are sharing the road with them.

But if you have ABS you don’t need a single skill other than an ability to know you have to stand on the brakes and make no attempt whatsoever to modulate the braking.

[Jim/Chris]

But if you have ABS you don’t need a single skill other than an ability to know you have to stand on the brakes and make no attempt whatsoever to modulate the braking.

I’ll ask…

Is that a bad thing?

[Corey]

Andy, all this gee whiz technology and our human frailty to rush it into acceptance is insane. One question for you, just how good are your roads? Ours in NC are declining in quality of the one material that is absolutely necessary for any lane departure technology to work. That quality issue is the pavement marking materials. The night vision of the markings is directly proportional to the percent coverage of the glass beads on the materials. The more percent coverage the greater the vision of the markings. The less the coverage the lower recognition of the markings.

The key technology for most of the autonomous technology to work is the degree to which the markings continue to have acceptable levels of retro-reflectivity – the feature comes about from the glass bead coverage of the markings. The problem can be observed by asking your self if on a rainy night the markings are clearly visible for the same distance as when it is not raining? The answer to that is they are not as visible when it is raining. The reason is really simple. When it rains, and it does not have to be a gully washer, the water floods the beads thus eliminating any degree of retro-reflectivity. That is exactly what the autonomous technology relies on to navigate lane position.

A human will have to be present and ready to override the technology. They will not be able to sit back and drink a mint julep or mindlessly talk on a cell phone or even surf the Internet. Those that doe are just looking for trouble.

Last question, just who is going to pay to retrofit more “classic” vehicles with the new technology? Maybe if the immediate past President was still in office he would provide all of us with the technology installed and at no cost – just like the cell phones, and doctors you could keep.

As for me, you can have it, I’m outta here.

[Chas]

ABS still sucks in some conditions. The first government mandated ABS system for trucks, (FMVS 121) did not work for crap. The components failed all the time. Most fleets simply disabled them. The systems in our coaches are better, but as Jon stated, look at all the posts about the light being on, and the high cost to repair.

You can keep your self driving cars, lane keeping systems, and all the rest. I will be just fine driving my vehicles by myself.

[Archived]

Andy,

If you have to ask that question then no answer will clear it up in your mind. But I’ll try in the hopes maybe you might get it.

If you have a vehicle with ABS the maximum braking effectiveness requires you to slam your foot on the brake pedal and not release it. Anything other than maximum brake effectiveness just requires the driver to vary pedal pressure as needed. It is presumed the driver has the brains to understand the difference between a modulated braking effort such as in normal stopping, compared to panic braking such as to avoid an impending impact with something.

If you understand that we are almost to the conclusion of my explanation.

Here is the problem. If you have never developed or don’t retain the skill level required to drive a vehicle that does not have ABS the practice of slamming on the brakes and holding your foot on them you can plan on having a vehicle with locked brakes and an uncontrolled skid.

Those unskilled drivers should consider the ABS warning light as a justification to take a vehicle out of service because without the basic skills required to modulate panic stop braking to prevent lock up while maintaining maximum braking effectiveness they are a danger to themselves and others.

Our bus ABS systems are such that a lot of us have had the ABS light illuminate. That is not unsafe, but it is a warning we become responsible for brake modulation. If you consider the lack of ABS unsafe I presume your vintage coach has become an undriven museum piece.