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A QUESTION FOR NEW ONWERS
Over the years in both our travels and on various forums we who have experience as Prevost owners we run into new owners who thought they were buying their dream coach, but in reality have bought a nightmare.
Except for luck (mostly) and the generous help of some others my first coach purchase was a very good experience but it could have been a disaster. We saw only one other coach before buying our first one so we stepped into ownership without a clue. But as I said, we were lucky in that the coach was completely trouble free and it turned out to be well suited for how we used it.
But Tom and I in the past few months have both run into folks who apparently were “smitten” with the Prevost coach they bought, were convinced by the seller everything was OK, and jumped in without so much as a clue about the systems or how anything was supposed to work. Then reality began to set in and these folks started to realize all that tread on the tires that shined like new because of copious amounts of tire dressing didn’t mean anything because the tires were XX years old and were unsafe. They did not realize the reason the seller never turned off the generator was because the house batteries were shot. They didn’t understand anything about inverters and were only finding out the reason the refrigerator wasn’t working was because the inverter had gone bad.
You all know the picture I am painting.
How can we reach out to people that are in the process of seeing, falling in love with, and buying their first Prevost, and help them avoid the nasty surprises their lack of knowledge brings about? I think it is starting to happen more because as the economy continues to improve more folks are going to feel comfortable treating themselves to a new-to-them coach. Both Tom and I have recently run into new owners of a used coach that have that deer-in-the-headlights look and in our few minutes of trying to help them with an issue we learn of many other issues and we don’t have the heart to tell them for fear we will ruin whatever joy still remains regarding their coach.
Is there a way we as a community can help others? Or should we keep our noses out of other people’s business even though we know they could use some help?
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44 Replies
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you should ABSOLUTELY NOT keep your very helpfull experience and knowledge to yourself. From the limited experience I have with this forum I consider it to be excellent. Newbie’s should spend a little time researching the multitude of complex items involved in making a Prevost purchase. With little time spent on this forum I think it should almost be apparent that the experienced members have great knowledge and are willing to share it, it seems to me that with the membership there is also senior members located throughout the country that would be willing to be a 2nd set of eyes.
I don’t think most people will or need to spend the time that I have allocated to my search, but when I purchase I will have visited with the major converters, gotten familiar with the forum members, and hopefully executed a positive purchase with experienced forum members input.
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I think it’s a good idea to help others even if its not what they want to hear its better to know about problems and get them fixed than be broke down on side of road What happened to sellers just telling the truth about things that will need to be replaced or repaired then buyer can make his own mind up or did the sellers think if they tell them about those things to replace or repair the buyer may not buy there coach For me I will fix what ever has to be repaired or replaced The problem is not the problem its our attitude about the problem. Helping people once they have bought a coach that needs lots of work is the end result its before they buy or be aware that it will need repairs
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Jon,
That can be a real tough line to walk.
In the past, I have offered advice that was intended only to be helpful, but the recipient found hurtful. I have chosen to only offer advice if asked….and even then I try real hard to “read” the question as best I can in an effort to be sensitive to the position of the person asking.
If you get an occasional negative feedback, just try to remember that you guys are doing the right thing and have only the best interests of fellow Prevost owners in mind. Unfortunately, sometimes the message can be painful to hear.
Good luck…
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I think just being here and keeping this community open is a huge contribution. You allowed me to become a member and participate without ownership.
Having access allowed me to follow forum posts for tech advice, chase suggested links and I paid close attention to any post involving the era and conversion companies I was considering.
What else could Prevost community do? It’s fun to consider, and as someone who purchased their first bus this year, I would have loved something more than was out there. The following ideas make resources readily available without putting an unwanted nose in someone’s business.
Adding a permanent “before you buy” tips page for the perspective Prevost owner would be extremely useful. The page could include downloadable PDF files on popular fixes, buying tips, definitions of frequently heard terms, distinctions of different models and eras, basic explanation of key components, a fact based description and explanation of conversion companies (no opinion or editorial), and perhaps a simple one-sheet with brief buying bullet points that could be printed and taken to a dealer or private seller. Jon has already written most of these.
Put together and giveaway or sell a comprehensive book here. Paypal buttons accepting visa/mastercard can easily be installed on the website. Offer a few free pages to create value for the book and incentivize a sale. If the group is hinky about keeping any money, funds could easily be donated to a charity, or go to future community events.
Prevost community could host and promote conference call workshops. The calls could be advertised on the site and could be topic specific to cover buying advice, service tips, and frequent issues of ownership. Websites like Freeconferencecall.com can supply the ability to host the calls for free.
Maybe advertise rallies, like the upcoming Branson event, in the local papers. You could announce “the buses are coming, the buses are coming” and open up a few times for the general public to come in, see the buses, attend a workshop and ask questions from the people who actually own and operate these machines. This first-person insight often has more credibility for the buyer than trying to figure out if the person selling you a coach is a friend or not. For the privacy of owners who don’t want to be on public display, perhaps participating owners could be parked in a specific section of the resort, or a few buses brought out front.
One thing is sure; there is a need for guidance.
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Thanks for the comments. Tom and I talked about folks that apparently never did their homework, never inspected the coach before the purchase and never sought advice from experienced owners. You can imagine the outcome. They ended up with a coach that in itself was overwhelming, and little by little were finding the multitude of things wrong that were going to take effort or money to fix.
Peter, I wish as you do that sellers were honest. When I sold my coaches I went through with the new owners before a penny changed hands and proved (and taught) how everything operated. I experienced that as a buyer myself and it made the purchase a joy rather than a disaster.
I have helped folks and my advice to all is to pick out your coach but before the sale is complete learn and verify everything. It is OK to expect some stuff might not work. But how that impacts the sale or the price is between the seller and the buyer and at least nobody has a nasty surprise.
I was helping friends evaluate a couple of coaches recently and both coaches were described as excellent well maintained coaches and everything was working. I just wish what was being spread by the sellers could be put on my garden. In a few minutes in each coach we found THOUSANDS of dollars of needed repairs including failed AC units, bad batteries, and in one case 8 year old tires described as brand new and with less than 1000 miles on them.
I know we have no obligation to poke our noses in other folks business, but it is sad to see new owners who have come to realize they face thousands of dollars in repairs and haven’t yet had an opportunity to enjoy their new coach.
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Jon & Tom,
as a fairly new owner myself, you and the Prevost Community site have been a wonderful resource. Without you the learning curve would have been steep and possibly painful.
This was our first RV purchase. Had never driven one before. So I read everything I found about Prevosts and spent 3 hours during the prepurchase inspection going over the systems. I really should have spent the 2 days you said it would take to thoroughly go through the systems. In the end I got lucky. The only real surprise was that the house batteries were bad. The engine, transmission, generator, pneumatics and Webasto turned out to be fine but I certainly did not spend enough time with them during the purchase.
Thanks for being there for us newbies
Gerald
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Jon
In the purchase of my fist bus I had no idea of what to look for and was very lucky that I did business with a reputable sponsor. I have since learned a tremendous amount from these blogs and a owner to be section is of tremendous value. For the person spending the cash as well as for an owner representing a bus for sale. I certain ally have taken the lessons learned hear and have my maintenance journals in order and keep up with things I never would have thought of. that being said it helps one prepare to have their bus stand out from others and perhaps bring a better selling price for their efforts.
Thanks
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Without this forum….this community….the personal assistance of Jon and our desire to own a coach, all we would have is the desire. That can’t get you into trouble, right? Yeah, right!
Jon graciously gave us two days of his time and expertise to look at the buses he mentioned above. Oh, they were shiny and flashy. Eye candy on wheels! But lurking beneath the bling were hidden expenses and disappointment.
We think back to just one year ago when we wanted a bus so badly we couldn’t stand it. In fact there were two we loved from the pictures. No. We didn’t go see them, thankfully. We knew we weren’t quite ready. And when they each sold we were really sad. They both could have been just fine. We will never know. The reality for us was, we were saved from our own stupidity. We just didn’t know what we didn’t know.
After reading the forums for a year, meeting a few owners and finally, getting two days of Jon’s personal boot camp…..boots on the ground and eyes of the systems, we set out to see a coach on our own.
We walked around it and then went inside. We liked what we saw so we began our inspection. For 9 hours we pushed buttons, shined flashlights and asked questions. Then we drove home talking it over and evaluating. For us it was important to get that cooling off period so we didn’t jump ahead prematurely so we waited a couple of days and then made an offer based on the pros and cons. We haven’t heard back from the seller yet but we hope we made Jon proud.
So far, this search has been exciting, emotional and exhausting…..we have been disappointed and delighted. Maybe thru it all, some day we will be able to help someone else.
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I bought my coach from Tom he was very pleasing to talk to on phone sent my friend over to see coach first his report was good and he live videoed it to me I then flew out there took two days with Tom and went over coach then went to my friends place for 8 days 20 mins from Tom’s stayed in coach I have called him many times about things he is always nice and helpful I wish everybody could have a good experience like I did yes there was some things that I did to upgrade and some things just wear out but I stay in one spot for four days drive for three 40 weeks every year I use it I know how it works tires brakes battery’s air bags those things need care and replaced but Tom was great I wish these sellers would be like Tom but then again they might not know either about some of the things that need care for what it’s worth
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This site is a great resource; I’m sure all agree.
The one thing I’ve noted, and it certainly isn’t unique to this site, is that some state information to be factual when it’s really opinion. Although opinion, especially that based on years of ownership experience shouldn’t be dismissed it can provide a disservice to sellers and unwarranted fear to prospective buyers.
Let’s take for example tire life. Clearly servicable tires are critical and their failure can be castotrophic and unfortunately even result in death. Some would say a tire is unservicable at 6 years, if stated as their opinion then okay. The fact is that Michelin doesn’t state that and they say the tires enter an annual inspection period before finally decalred unservicable. If memory serves me, Michelin states tires are unservicaeable at 10 years and not 6. So, the way this is messaged is as important as the message. The same can be said about several systems. I took the advice of this board and replaced my are bags given they met the board threshold of over 10 years old and close to the other threshold of 100,000 miles. I don’t regret it, but it actually was probably not necessary, as stated by Prevost and many owners with over 15 years and as much as 200,000 miles on their coaches. My gut feel now is that these opinions aren’t really based on a need for replacement but rather a preventive measure to significantly reduce the risk of failure on the road. That’s a good thing, but not a risk versus reward formula that everyone wants to subscribe to. I would be the first to say you shouldn’t use wet cell batteries in most house application because the way they are housed in the coach. That would be my opinion as wet cells can be used if properly ventilated.
If facts can be referenced and opinions can be substantiated or simply stated as opinions I think buyers and sellers will be better served.
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Thanks for all the kind words, Peter, your warranty has expired!:)
Peter is doing it right, his preventative approach to items that can
and will fail, will keep him running during those 40 weeks of travel.
His bus is a business machine and he CANNOT be delayed.Over the years I have had 5 different Prevosts and that means I
sold 4. I did my very best to spend whatever time was necessary with
each buyer and supported them definitely with any help that I could
offer. Each bus had a detailed maintenance log and any items that I
felt needed repaired or replaced, I shared that information up front.
My take was these folks would be a friend and I would see them eye to
eye on many occasions.Unfortunately, some private sales are an attempt to unload a
troublesome bus or to avoid costly needed repairs. These sellers will
tell the buyer anything to get the deal done and the uneducated
Prevost buyer is in for a bad ride. I think some buyers are so
overwhelmed by the quality and drive-ability of a Prevost, they have
blinders on and cannot see the pitfalls coming after the sale. This
is not restricted to private sales, there are sales entities and
brokers out there that will do the same exact thing, but then blame
the previous owner for not disclosing the problems in an attempt to
clear their image. But, if you buy “as is”, there is no one
to blame except yourself.I, like Jon and probably many of you, have listened to new owners
tell their story of just buying the bus and they’re facing a
nightmare of repairs and non-working systems. Like Paul, I offer
advice and make suggestions, but never have said, “what were you thinking” when plunking down hundreds of thousands
of dollars for a complicated expensive bus without doing any due
diligence or getting a qualified neutral party to do an inspection?
So, smile and try to help, that’s all you can do.How do you get prospective buyers help before the purchase? You
found it, right here, Prevost Community! -
“some state information to be factual when it’s really opinion. “
Seems to me it’s all opinion, whether its the opinion of the manufacturer or owner. Even the manufacturer cannot tell you that a given part or system will, in fact, fail on a specific day or after a specific number of miles or hours.
It’s all based on the best information available, and one would hope that the manufacturer would be the most reliable source of that information due to their extensive research and development.
However, sometimes the manufacturer bases their opinions on commercial or industrial use, which may, or may not, be directly applicable to individual usage.
Just my opinion…
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Just a note on tire life…in order to do a complete inspection, the tire has to be dismounted and checked inside as well as out. To do it right, the tire should be x-rayed like if it is going to be retreaded. If one is going to pay to get that done, you may as well put on the new tires at 5 or 6 years and be ahead of the game. IMHO, it is not worth trying to skimp on tires just to see how long you can go. The end result could be a lot more expensive than a new set of tires.
Same thing goes for air bags, leveling valves, norgren valves etc. Who wants to be stranded on the road with a failure of any of these items? I know I don’t.
The info that has been shared on the life of various components is priceless for newbies as well as those of us who don’t want to have issues. Those who want to take risks, go ahead, it is your bus.
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I think it is important to understand when we toss around numbers and values if there is a question as to the source or if it is an opinion anyone, anytime should question it and ask for a source.
Gil makes a point and he is stating his interpretations which is not an unusual thing for people to do on a forum. Gil cites what he believes to be examples of the life of air bags and tires. If anyone reads the forums they will see similar information and they will also see contradictory information. It is up to the reader to sort out that which they want to believe.
Let’s take a few examples as Gil has pointed out. The tire manufacturers do not necessarily tell you how long the life of a tire is. But you can draw your own conclusions as to what you consider the life of a tire based on what they say. A tire manufacturer will warrant the tire for five or six years from the date of installation. Beyond that date they all say they will not offer any compensation for a tire failure. They also say from that date (5 or 6 years) tires must be regularly inspected and if sidewall cracks beyond a certain level are found the tire must be removed from service Michelin shows full size photos of sidewall cracks and defines at which level the cracks are such the tire has to be removed from service.
Every tire manufacturer says no matter when the tires were first installed, once they have reach the 10 year point from the date code on the tire the tire must be removed from service. Every owner has his or her own tolerance level for risk and as such information such as the above can be read and interpreted as the owner sees fit. Nobody on any forum can tell you what to do, but can tell you what they do. For me, I used to remove my tires at 6 years. based on the date code. I have a few years before I decide if I wish to continue the practice. What others do is up to them, but as a buyer I think purchasers should consider a tire to have no value at six years.
I arbitrarily established 10 years for the life of my air bags based on personal experience and anecdotal evidence. Others have picked up the practice and repeated it. Prevost on the other hand says drive them till they leak. The problem I have with that approach and it is strictly a personal decision is when they fail it is not always just a leak. If it was just a leak we would see the coach leaning and know we had a problem to fix. But if the failure is a blowout that is a different story. Trying to drive with a coach whose suspension is sitting down on the stops can be damaging and dangerous. So rather than face the prospect of sitting on the side of the road awaiting parts, or seeing the coach dragged onto a flatbed I opt to change perfectly good air bags before I need to. Ditto with brake chambers. Again, my point to buyers when I say stuff like that is you need to be aware our components have a life span and if you buy a coach with 10 year old air bags they may be perfectly fine, just like 6 year old tires, or they may be near failure. In that context there is a financial factor associated with 10 year old air bags just like there is with 6 year old tires.
The opinions we all have are often formed from experience. Potential purchasers who are about to make a large financial decision can be as conservative or as much a risk taker as they choose. Our collective opinions are likely to influence their purchase decisions and all we should be prepared to do if asked is to state if something we say is fact or opinion and if opinion, explain why we have formed the opinion.
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One should only provide the advise for which one is asked. And, free advise is just that.
Most shoppers and newbies don’t even know what they don’t know. The problem, with answering a question for them is that you formulate your response based on your experience, with your coach, and your converter, and your capabilities and your technical and financial resources. Thus, there is the possibility that none of your answer is helpful and all you have done is further confuse the issue. Basically, the other edge of the sword. This is not speculation, this is fact of experience. I was one of the first Vantare’ owners on the POG asking questions about a few of the subsystems. I got responses back from Liberty, Marathons, Royal, etc. owners. On some specific issues, the information I received was completely in error, as my Vantare’ 26-ton barge of happiness was a completely different animal.
With all that said, I will try to assist in any way I can if a query pops up and someone needs help. But let us remember the Jerry McGuire routine “Help me help you!”
The devil is in the details on these 26-ton road rockets. The details needed to help are all the specifics you can possibly provide about an issue, the involved systems and the components. And, pictures really do help. This applies to coaches you are shopping and those you own.
You might think that this applies to issues which arise after purchase, but I don’t think so. We will all eventually sell our coaches. Sooner or later the next owner will have these issues as well. Plus, converters seemed to have built many coaches, in their own line, with the same techniques and subsystems in some age bracket. The more detail provided helps the next person find the same answer without as much of the pain.
O.K., that’s $2 worth of IMHO.
Regards. Good Luck. Safe travels.
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