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Help me decide if I really owe on this invoice
Hey guys…I don’t want to be like Ol’ Ben, so I am going to ask for your advice prior to causing a big rift and possibly never being able to go back to Liberty Coach again.
A year ago I had major upgrades done….all electronics, crestron, ipad, etc., part of which was installation of a cellular modem for mobile wifi. My very clear understanding at the time of installation was that the data was “unlimited”, not because Verizon offers an unlimited plan but that there were a number of buses sharing a large pool of data. The idea was that some people would not use their bus in a given month while others would and that the numbers would fluctuate but that there was enough for everyone, so “no worries of overages”. For 12 months now I have sent a check to Liberty for $80 per month regardless of my use of data, and never hearing about how much I used.
In July I got an email from them that I was responsible for $1500 in overages in June and was on track to double that in July, to “please monitor the activity so that these overages are controlled”. I called and tried to determine what exactly I was on the hook for when the use was supposed to be “unlimited” but was told not to worry about it, this person was just relaying a message. Still, we cut down on usage.
Today I opened a bill for the usual $80, plus another $800 for overages! No explanations, dates, etc. I called their staff and told them I wasn’t going to pay this bill that I hadn’t authorized and later got an email from Frank that requested a timetable for remittance. After a phone call to him I am still not satisfied, nor inclined to pay the bill.
First, I am extremely clear on the “unlimited” term used at time of purchase, though it must have been from a phone call as I have nothing written either way. If it hadn’t been I would surely have wondered why I would pay $80/month for a 10GB plan when I go through 30 every month on my phone. Second, I have no information on the plan. Not the billing cycle, not the total cost nor the amount per person, not the amount of data available to everyone, nor individual or collective usage in a given time period, including my own. Without any of that, one month you could conceivably use 15GB and have an overage while another month you could use 100GB without one. It all depends on how the group is using data.
Are any of you reading this using Liberty’s plan? Were you also told it was “unlimited”? Have you been hit with extra charges to which you didn’t agree in advance?
If not on their plan, would you, reading my version of this story, write them a check for almost $1000? Or, is it stupid to assume that people, like me, would write essentially a blank check every month?
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77 Replies
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I am not smart enough to understand what those dollar amounts mean in terms of usage.
In terms a non technical Neanderthal like me can understand what does $1000 worth of internet access provide, compared to the base rate of $80, and what would the $80 provide. Is $80 one movie a night, every night for a month? Two movies? Would $1500, $1000, or even $800 be a multiple of that $80 base rate?
We have Comcast commercial at home, and I pay about $59 a month for “unlimited” high speed internet access. There have been times where we have watched Netflix a couple of hours a night, plus all the work I do relating to the web site, but nobody ever provides me with a description of how much that usage might be.
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What does your contract say? It seems to me they would have a hard time enforcing a billing policy that they can’t prove you agreed to.
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Mark Monson uses their internet I think and I almost did but we don’t video stream in the bus… just at home… I have an AT&T card with 20 GB month and rollover what we don’t use and I save enough when we don’t use it that when we do finally go we have plenty… the rollover is only good for 30 days I think… also if we need more another 10GB is available or whatever we need… No jacked up prices for overage which is great. In other words we can pay as we go for any extra and my little WiFi tells me my current use which is great.
WhenI talked to Frank he told me no-one ever goes over as there is plenty to go around and as long as the overall usage is under what they have available its OK… maybe they are selling too many packages now and everyone is going over… absolutely not your fault and I think they should have given you fair warning about your usage being so high…I would demand a proper invoice of the charges… I think that is very tacky on their part.
As a matter of interest do you know how many gigs you use in the bus?
By the way …. don’t forget you’ll always have Jeff.. that’s better than Liberty anyway !!
Cheers… Diane
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Jon, $80 is access for me and adds 10GB to the pot.
Video is about 2GB/hr, so a 2 hour movie is 4GB. If your paying $15/GB overage that 2 hour movie is $60.
Yes, Bryan, but there is no contract. What Diane says below is pretty much what I was told, but nothing in writing. Can he hold me to something? I don’t think so, but I want to make sure I don’t end up on the wall like Ben.
At home we had no problem burning through 150GB per month when we had DSL and they metered the usage. Now we have a WISP and it is unlimited so I am sure we are using multiples of that. Bus usage they told me this summer was over 100GB, which doesn’t surprise me at all. The only surprise was how we were suddenly expected to pay extra for it. I appreciate that what you were told jives with what I was told and hope to hear from a few more.
I think they oversold their capabilities. Frank told me today that he had no idea how much data video used and didn’t have time to look it up. Took me 10 seconds to tell him. You’d think he would make it his business to know that and, like I told him, tell someone adding a Roku AND and Apple TV to the bus that they would have to watch their usage. Younger people are moving everything towards streaming. No one buys a CD any more, all music, all video is in the web. Statistically Netflix accounts for 40% of ALL internet traffic. That doesn’t include Hulu, Vudu, HBO Now, etc.
Even with an accounting now, Diane, I don’t like being billed without an understanding before hand and I really don’t like changing terms when it is not advantageous to them. I was told it was “unlimited” and based a very expensive upgrade partly on that fact. Leaving me in the lurch now burns my butt.
I am looking into how I can move my system to my AT&T account. I have a 30GB plan with the same rollover, but would probably have to add more data still.
2005 XL Thompson Coach
Rarely tow anything behind us.
Sold: 1993 Liberty that we loved for 12 years. -
“Younger people are moving toward streaming….”
Here is where the old cantankerous fart in me comes out. Younger people who have no concept that things in life aren’t free will move toward streaming because they have no clue someone has to pay for their amusement. I got food, clothes and shelter as a kid. If I wanted a bike, BB gun, comic books, baseball cards, etc. I had to pay for it.
My generation when growing up heard things like “turn off the lights if you are not in the room”. or “eat all you want, but don’t take more than you are going to eat” because our parents knew there was a cost associated with everything and we kids had to learn to respect that.
To me, unlimited means just that, but there is a side of me that cannot ignore whoever is using all the data should be aware somebody, somewhere is going to eat the cost.
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In my historical reading and following on this Forum, it has always been “Understood” that Liberty offers an unlimited plan. I am sure they have sold a lot of updates of equipment and access to this unlimited offer.
Very concerning that that they would send someone a bill for overage. In the interest of Customer Service I would hope they would notify all user prior to any biling for exces use over a certain amount where they intend to charge.
Of the business represented itself to offer unlimited the boss should back that, if they want to change that they should provide reasonable notice. That being said it concerns me about the equipment updates they did based on the “Unlimited Service”.
if something sounds good, ensure you get it in writing.
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Karl….
There is just NO doubt that you should have been warned… in my honest opinion you don’t owe them a cent more than the agreed $80 a month…one reason I didn’t go with them was we had to take the bus to Stewart… and our bus only knows its way to Jeff’s..their installation fee and equipment to get their internet was astronomical.. why would anyone pay that much for a “limited” service when you you can get the same sevice at Verizon or AT&T in a nice little router that fits in the palm of your hand and works everywhere including in your car or home. Taking the “unlimited” out of the equation makes it useless looking at the big picture.
What they should do now is tell you that it is limited from here on out and throw the bills out… letting you decide what you want for future service.
Cheers Diane
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Jon, you misunderstand the meaning of “streaming”. It sounds like you define it as the Napster of old, when people pirated music and streaming was a way of securing content without playing it.
What it means now is that the information is in the cloud instead of on physical media. You still pay for access to the content, i.e. Netflix, Hulu, Apple Music, etc. which have monthly fees by which they pay the copyright holders. The advantages to this system is lower production and distribution costs for the sellers and lower costs to the buyers, along with immediate access to content and no concerns of loss or damage to media. Since the industry moved toward this model services like Napster have faded away and piracy is way down. By the way, I pay for all three of the services above every month.
Cellular data plans are a huge cash cow. You can demonstrate that by vomparing to what you pay for your internet service at home. When Google Fiber has come to town, like KC (lucky Al!) selling 1GB down speeds for $10 a month they have really disrupted the pricing structure. I liken these costs today with how we did long distance in my childhood. Now I pay nothing for it, and not because I am stealing.
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Thank you, Paul. I appreciate that my memory isn’t (that far) gone yet. Actually, I looked back this morning at an email I sent to Jon a year ago where I explained the advantages to the unlimited plan, which reinforces that my memory hasn’t faded. Still, I am hoping that Mark chimes in with his understanding having bought his bus new.
I also can’t disagree with getting it in writing if it sounds good. Here I was lulled by Liberty’s stellar reputation. Every _single_ time I have ever dropped off my coach with them they have never asked a question about my list, the items on it were complete and perfect, and the cost was reasonable. Who’d have thought?
Diane is right. I can add a device onto my personal plan for $10/month, which I am now looking into doing. Unfortunately, this is going to come with an added hardware cost.
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Karl,
It may be an end result where you pay the $8000 but then revisit the “agreement” with Liberty and require safeguards to their offering going forward. if they really dont want to find themselves in court at some point, they need to take the fact that they are an ISP into serious consideration and have a well defined agreement with their customer with the ability to provide detailed billing information.
I would request that if they are in fact providing a limited amount of data for the $80 a month fee, then they need to either provide notification of when you are getting to that limit and about to go over (and about to incure overages) or not allow additional data at the limit.
If Liberty is unable to provide this level of support, then I would tell where they can go with their $800 and end my internet relationship with them.
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Unlimited is unlimited. This sounds like the same path the cell companies took when years ago we all had unlimited data, soon to be replaced by pay as you go plans based on gig usage. Most of those old plans have been eliminated, forced out by the cell companies. Usage grew based on the services available as Karl pointed out and a big leap towards technology. Those that still have an unlimited plan are hanging on for dear life, while the cell companies work hard to eliminate those plans because they don’t make any money. Liberty may be in the same boat.
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You know, Charles, I could understand if they want to change things going forward, but dropping the bill on me and trying to change it retroactively is baloney.
Liberty wasn’t making money on this, Tom. I just did some googling for Verizon plans and they were basically giving us the service at cost. The problem is that they didn’t anticipate the dramatic increases possible when people with kids got out on the road for the summer.
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If there is no contract, there can be no small print either. So what can they hold you to? Also, if your average usage hasn’t changed over the period, then surely you should have had an overage bill way before now. Contracts/small print aside, how can they now chase you for something a few months ago that they haven’t even given you specific detail on? I think the best they can hope for is to pull you from their network to prevent you hoovering up any more bandwidth. It does sound very much like they didn’t do their math before offering an unlimited service on the back of their not-so-cheap bus upgrades, knowing how much your average American likes their access to streamed movies & music. Especially in a freshly upgraded bus!
Stick to your guns unless the lawyers on here suggest otherwise. I don’t think you will become “Ol’ Bonz” because of it. :))
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When you represent Internet as unlimited you better be prepared for the use age you are going to get from the consumer ears you sell t to.
That representation I am certain created a lot of updated equipment sales and installations as Diane has stated.
I am and always will be very Leary of any unlimited service because if I get onboard early that is great but history tells me that after it matures
and gets sold to the masses the representing company will do everything possible to limit it.
Some will even take the additional hit to there reputation, time will tell here. -
Karl: I got my bus in May of 2015 and did the same $800 per month thing. I was told by Leesa that there were no caps, and that it was the same price for everyone because some use it more some months while others use it less. I paid up thru December 2015. I signed no contract for the data, and no paperwork was given to me for it, other than the credit card receipt.
I don’t think I would pay it (the overage). If they only offer a certain amount, then it is up to them to let you know up front. I would assume that with kids, your usage is a lot higher than the average no kids users, but they should know this going in. Our usage is probably less than most because we use the bus fewer days, and not at all in the winter.
One thing not brought up yet, is the fact that it should help them out if they have to diagnose a problem. They can remotely access your bus this way, and I would think that it would benefit Liberty in that regard. I am not sure what all they can do, but I know the Crestron can be accessed and changes made using the remote access.
In the Legendary, we had a Verizon USB dongle that gave us 5gb per month for $500. We would sometimes go over and have to up the amount of data for that month, but that was not the norm.
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