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Kinda funny how in all the ad’s everyone says million mile coach, million mile motor blah blah but then everyone is afraid of some miles.

Jon is right, comes down to what someone is willing to pay and what someone will accept.

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I don’t want it because of mileage you replace the bull gear around that mileage on a series 60 sure they may run a million miles but it comes at a cost and the average life of a 60 series in a bus is 700,000 miles BTDT I don’t into buy the million mile deal

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At the risk of enraging the thread creep police I will opine on high mileage coaches.

I will assume Clifford is right about the life of a Series 60. If I had a choice of two equal coaches, identical in appearance, condition, wear and tear, etc., both had excellent service records but one was a $500,000 2006 and the other was a $300,000 2006 I would be all over that high mileage coach. For the $200,000 savings I could replace the entire drive train with brand new and have enough money left over to buy fuel and maintenance for 10 years of use.

In actuality I would not replace anything but would drive it as is because unless and until anything started to fail in the drivetrain I would be enjoying my coach that had more miles of life left than I would ever be able to put on it. And if something did fail such as the engine I would have the money to replace it.

But in the motor home market buyers are blind to the fact that a 10 year old coach with 30,000 miles has the potential to be a bigger problem than the same coach with 120,000 miles on it and a history of regular use.

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After going thru this a short time ago, I can tell you as a buyer, it did make a difference with regard to the maintenance of the coaches I was looking at but NOT who the converter was……For me with my Royale I had Panterra coach, Royale Phoenix, Jeff’s shop and many more that can work on the conversion part and we all have the same “shell”.

I know I most likely will never get out what I’ve invested with regard to maintenance but that gives me the “peace of mind” I wanted a coach with new tires, batteries, bags, valves, ect……do any of those things affect the loan value, I think not but it had GREAT value to me as a buyer.

Jim

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We do get a return on our investment in maintenance. Especially preventive maintenance. I really feel sorry for anyone that has an on-road failure because we are at the mercy of others. No amount of preventive maintenance will prevent the occasional unplanned equipment failure, but it will significantly reduce surprises.

I am confident my service records helped sell my two previous coaches and likely allowed me to get a better selling price. I have had conversations with others who sold coaches with good service records and they all felt the documentation got them a faster sale, a better price, or both.

So the return on investment is greater peace of mind and a likely higher selling price both of which in my opinion make the maintenance expense less costly.

[Corey]

Just to weigh in on (what I view as) a personal preference issue:

I specifically wanted a non-slide coach, as (to me) the added weight, cost, complexity and potential failure point(s) versus the additional space gained was insufficient to warrant getting a coach with slides.

I may be in the minority, but I do think there is a defined market still in place for non-slide coaches.

It clearly depends on the intended use by the owners (is it for a couple, or it is for a big family that may need more space, a part-timer or a full-timer, etc.), but as the supply / demand equation changes, market pricing will adjust (up or down).

Again, just my viewpoint as a newbie..

Mike

[Glenn]

I think Mike is proving a willing buyer and seller both determine market value.

A person wanting a 2 slide coach with OTR is willing to pay more for one and far less for one without those features. A person wanting a non slide coach is never going to place much value on slides because he doesn’t want them.

I want what I want and I am willing to pay for it. As a rule we keep our coaches a relatively long time so it is far more important for us to get features we want. Because of that we undoubtedly walk by a lot of buying opportunities because those coaches a seller is willing to let go for a very low price are not what we want, and we cannot envision ourselves living in a coach that does not have the things we want. We pay a lot of money for a coach and want what we want.

On the other hand if we traded often we might focus on a specific coach or converter or other characteristic but we will never lose sight of the fact the coach we buy has to be a “steal”. Trading often erases the buying errors, but it costs a lot of money unless the buyer is driven to “steal” a coach.

So which type of buyer is used to establish market value? The “steals” are always going to be available. Some sellers have to dump their coaches and are willing to take far less than retail just to get out from under the cost of ownership. But you do not often run across those sellers. On the other hand, There are some sellers that have outstanding examples of a Prevost conversion and with a good service history that has been documented they can command a high price for their coach. Especially if the seller is the converter who is willing to offer the buyer strong after the sale support. Which of the two represent the market price?

As owners all of us should guard against depreciation. There is nothing more costly relating to coach ownership than depreciation, yet is seems to be the national past time bragging about how cheap a coach was purchased which not only devalues the coach in question, but sends a signal to all buyers that the selling price has to inflict pain on the seller.

[Archived]

When we were looking to buy late last fall, I had the same struggle trying to determine a coaches’ value and what a lending institution would loan against a coach. I was looking at 1994-2002 45 ft H-3’s

Huntington Bank which is a local bank in my town would loan 90% of the value and up to 180 months. O.A.C.

Two ways back at the end of 2013 they determined the value:

If I was purchasing from a dealer, they would loan up to 90% of the price on the purchase agreement drawn up on dealer paperwork.

If it was thru a private sale, they would loan up to 90% of the appraised value determined by the appraiser.

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Any one of us could qualify as appraisers because all we have to do is look up all 20XX coaches for sale, average their asking prices and bingo, we have an appraisal. Or we could call up every dealer in the country and say we have a 20XX coach we want to sell, and ask if they wanted it in their inventory, what would they pay for it. Bingo, now we have wholesale.

But not either of those mean a damn thing because the selling price is what the buyer will pay and the seller will accept. They may start out thousands of dollars apart, but at some point they reach the real value.

The only time prices are not fair, do not reflect true value is when there is a surprise. Some buyers have paid what they thought was a fair price, but only after the sale did they find the coach needs extensive and costly repairs, something that should have been a part of agreeing on price, but for whatever reason was not. I have no idea how those sales are factored into the equation.

[Archived]

Double K: Send me an email: dkarth@execpc.com. I’ll send you a link to a late 90’s Liberty that I think is a really good deal.

[Peter]

Double K … what vintage Prevost are you looking for? After buying our coach in April/May I found a good deal on what looks like a nice coach. email me and I’ll send you a link: dkarth@execpc.com

Prior to negotiating with our seller … I talked to Jon and I think Charles. They told me what I see posted: prices have firmed over the winter, a coach is worth only what a seller will sell for and a buyer will buy for. If you have found

“the right bus” … don’t lose it over a couple of grand.

Our seller couldn’t produce ANY maintenance records beyond dates, mileage, and Hobbs time on oil and trans fluid filters. Jeff Rowe was able find out what was done recently at Liberty in North Chicago and I was able to pry some information out of Buddy Gregg in Knoxville and a big truck shop the previous owner used in South Bend … just fluids.

Fortunately Jeff kept repeating the same thing: With no records, presume nothing has been replaced and everything needs replacing. Factor that into the deal, which I did.

Maintaining a list of as many “list prices” as possible over time is at least a place to start in trying to value something. But you need more than just “list price”. What kind of adjustments needs to be made for tires, batteries, whatever isn’t working, what is the TV situation, has the carpet been replaced, what is the condition of the interior and exterior, etc., etc. etc. Like like a house appraiser does … make the adjustments.

Anyone keeping that list is creating value to the buyers and the sellers in the market at anyone time. Big job. I think at one point last fall RV Trader had 140 (????) Prevost listed for sale. Add POG, PC, eBay and Craigslist listings and it starts to get close to 200 for sale across the country. Big list.

Slides: I did not want slides for various reasons. Interestingly we just spent five days at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway in the motorhome lot. Lots of great comments about our Prevost and Jack Finch’s. Once some of the neighbors drank enough courage in the evenings they started to ask for tours. One couple has recently purchased a 36 to 38 foot S&S motorhome with slides. The wife commented that slides are really wonderful until they won’t slide back in which apparently has happened to them more than once!

One of the biggesting things that surprised me during our search are the Prevosts for sale on Craigslist and only Craigslist. That is where we found the one we bought as well as another we had interest in.

[Archived]

Thanks Dick, I will email you. I really want to talk to someone who is knowledgable about the purchasing process.and fair market values. I have a few dealer contacts who I think would help me, but I am not sure how objective they will be….they want to sell me their bus.

The contributions to this thread are informative. But the general consensus is that the bus is worth what the buyer is willing to pay and the seller is willing to accept. I need advice as to how much I should be willing to pay.

I have located a potential candidate for purchase. There are a few things that concern me about the bus (very low mileage, incomplete electronics upgrades, possible electrical issues), and a few more things that concern me about the seller (he is not very knowledgeable about the bus or how to operate the systems). It is apparent that his asking price is too high…I think the value is $50K-$100K less than the asking price. I am not looking to “steal” the bus…it’s just from what I have observed during my bus search (without knowing the “real” price at which comparable buses have sold). The bus has been on the market for about 9 months, and the seller claims that he has not received any offers, except the normal “I am flying in tomorrow to buy your bus” guy who never shows up. To me, that would indicate that his selling price is too high.

The seller appears to be an honest guy, but just not very knowledgable about the bus. It supposedly has been inspected by a Prevost service center, who gave it a “clean bill of health” on the chassis and the delamination issue. I have not seen those records, but the seller claims he has them.

[Archived]

As a buyer, if you have scanned all the listings on the internet, seen a number of coaches, and considered the cost of needed repairs or upgrades it is highly probable your gut feel on the value of the coach to you is going to be on the money.

I previously noted no one other than the buyer is really capable of telling the buyer what to pay. What you value and how you decide what you will spend is completely different than what someone else values and decides to spend.

I don’t know why the market (all buyers as a group) tries to gather hard data about pricing when I strongly suspect no one really knows the values. There are such huge price swings from coach to coach neither buyers or sellers know what is valid.

I was concerned about two comments. First the coach has incomplete electronics upgrades and electrical problems. Usually when a coach has issues the seller always describes them as easy fixes. That’s usually BS because of the fix was easy the seller would have done it. The second concern is the seller doesnt know. If I don’t want to get into a discussion about why all my hub seals are leaking or why my TV won’t work, or why I keep getting a warning light on the dash I will just say I don’t know. That is a whole lot better than trying to explain things and possibly getting caught in a lie. If an owner uses the “I don’t know” method to avoid answering hard questions, consider that he may not really know, and that means he likely didn’t know enough to even maintain the coach properly so you can presume the coach has way more problems than what you already know. He don’t know what he don’t know.

[Archived]

Double K,

If you are referring to dated TVs and AV systems, don’t be concerned. I see this all to frequently. Some even went the route of installing ATSC (Digital TV) converters…are you kidding me! We have some very nice coaches and someone can’t spend less than a grand to upgrade a TV. A VCR still installed…why? Oh yea, it’s the modulator for the SaTV system…really! My bottom line on AV systems is that unless they were changed in the last few years they are obsolete.

I hear you on pricing. It’s what any educated buyer wants to understand. Sure, there’s the price is what you are willing to spend argument and that works if you don’t put much value on money. What most of us want to understand is what is a fair offer. Most of us aren’t looking to insult the buyer and many of us don’t want to leave money on the table. Here’s what I did when I bought. I looked at almost every conversion for sale in Florida that met my requirements. Requirements that changed during my search. What I did when looking at each coach is to feel out the seller as to what their bottom line was. This is pretty easy if it’s a private seller. When I finally got to the coach that I was happy with, I had a good feel for where I should be on my offer and that’s just about where we settled. This does take some time. For me, and I’m sure my frequent buying habits are to blame, I only gave myself a couple months to buy. I was also a 2 coach owner when I bought my Prevost. I wasn’t going to risk selling my current coach without having a replacement. I listed my old coach on eBay and in less than 2 weeks it was gone. That too I couldn’t have done without having a gut feel for competitive pricing. Of course, a 2008 Beaver had a book value. At the time book values were way too high on the retail side and far to low on the wholesale (loan) values.

Personally, I can’t be too concerned with some things that might need repairs, if they are willingly disclosed. What I found during my search were several owners that couldn’t afford the repairs or didn’t want to make any more investments. I know of at least 3 coaches that needed tires and batteries. Not only were these disclosed, the owners made it clear that’s how they priced their coaches.

I’d get someone knowledgeable to at least do a walk through before you get too involved and incur PDI expenses. If the coach is anywhere near us, give me call, I’ll take a look. I suspect knowledgeable members in other areas may do the same.

[Archived]

Since buyers come from all experience levels I think the final sales price tends to reflect the buyer’s knowledge of the coach being purchased.

On this and other forums far too often we have read posts where the buyer has not bought what they expected. Most of the time they bought a coach represented as “needs nothing” only to find out the hard way some heavy spending is required to bring the coach into reliable condition.

The full burden to verify a coach is the responsibility of the buyer.

A concern I have relates to ads I see on some sites. I know of a coach for sale right now listed as a Liberty. It has the Liberty logo on the back door and even has Liberty logos on the air horns. It is a nice looking coach, but it is not a Liberty. I emailed the seller and told him it did not appear to be a Liberty. He continues to market the coach as a Liberty and someday someone not familiar with how Liberty builds its systems and sets up the bays is going to be mislead into buying that coach expecting he bought a Liberty. So far that is the biggest case I see now of misrepresentation, but there have been others.

Gil’s point about looking at coaches is very important. Even if the first coach a buyer looks at is the perfect coach at the right price it is very important to develop a sense of the market, coaches, prices, and condition of coaches. It might help avoid a mistake.