[gary]

I have been reading about the ‘differences’ since last summer.

Outlaw is now Emerald Coach. Simply, they are an entry level converter. I never investigated this converter as I wanted a company that has been in business longer and a upper level coach was OK and is what we wanted.

Millennium. They put their generator radiator on the roof and they install Aqua-Hot for heating. They use four inverters and use Prevost and Valid slides.

Marathon. They put their generator radiator in the front of the coach behind the grill. They use two inverters and use Prevost and/or Valid slides. They use Webasto for heating. Marathon will probably do just about anything you want (adding more inverters, using Aqua-Hot). They lean towards AGM batteries and will put in Lithium if you want them. Marathon does not show a full bath at the rear of the coach in their 2014 plans but will build one if you prefer. They use four roof 15,000 btu units and have separate grey and black tanks. Uses a jake brake. Marathon does not put a navigation screen on the passenger side anymore as I had seen them in previous coaches. They do not install macerators.

Liberty. They put their generator radiator in a separate compartment mid way down the driver’s side. It has a grill at the bottom of that compartment for air flow. They pretty much use only Webasto for heating and only use Prevost Slides. If you go with four slides, they use four roof 13,500 btu units. They use one holding tank for black and grey (189 gal). Liberty puts a navigation screen on the passenger side for the co-pilot to see (they say it’s also a small TV). Macerator and heated floors standard. They use 4 inverters.

My investigating experience is that Liberty is the most expensive of all the converters. They are not as flexible on changes but to me, they have thought out everything so well, they know what works and what has worked for many, many years. Liberty only uses a retarder for engine braking. They also only use Lithium batteries. Their floor plan, to us, did not need any tweaking. They also do not use electric slide trays, manual only.

All of them (Marathon, Millennium and Liberty Coach) , use the Crestron system.

We really only focused on Marathon and Liberty. Liberty Coach really spoke to the ‘inner’ me.

MM.

[Chris]

Thanks for your input. However as a trucker, I prefer Jakes ha ha. So that pits me towards Marathon.

On OTR bus air. How is it in areas like winter in North Idaho at say -50F to down south and humid or dry at 100? I hear of exterior condensation being down south as an issue addressed by adjusting blower angles. And which converter has best insulastion for cold areas?

[Kevin]

Dear Future…………

Like you I was familiar with and like the Jake. There is no doubt it works well. A retarder was new to me in my previous coach and I had to get used to it. I now prefer it.

A Jake is worth about 50% of the available HP for slowing the coach. So with a 470 HP engine a Jake gives you about 235 HP worth of slowing ability. With a high and low position and the ability to up or downshift there are not many hills that cannot be negotiated without touching the brakes.

A retarder gives you the same ability, but it seems to provide a greater amount of power to slow the coach. Early coaches with the retarder had transmission temperature gauges and it was scary to watch the temps quickly climb when the retarder was being used, but XLII coaches for example don’t show the rapid transmission oil temperature rise of earlier coaches despite agressive use of the retarder.

The retarder has 6 positions and we can manage 8% grades with some downshifting and the use of the 2nd and third positions on the selector. I haven’t had to use the higher positions because the lower three are so effective. Where the retarder in my opinion is superior to the Jake is that if you leave the retarder master switch on, even if the selector is in the off position the retarder is active when you step on the brakes and it is proportional to your braking effort. Hit the brakes hard and you are getting maximum retarder assistance. When people steal your stopping distance it is comforting to know you don’t have to do anything special to get maximum stopping performance with the retarder on.

OTR bus air works in any temperature extremes. Been there, done that and if you can turn a knob or push a button you have just taken care of the comfort in the coach without ever leaving the driver’s seat. I suspect all converters use the same insulation which Prevost sprays in the entire shell. If any converter adds more maybe someone can post that information.

[Archived]

OK that puts a point in Liberties corner.However like a Jake running when the brake is tapped and then “coasting” in gear without touch of any pedal, does the retarder cancel when you let off the brake unlike a jake?

[Bill]

No, if the retarder is on and a position selected with the stalk, when you come off the brake without giving it throttle, the retarder stays on.

[Archived]

As does a Jake! The Jake is always on unless you are press the throttle or on cruise. That’s the beauty of a Jake. You don’t have to think about it too much. It just works when you need it.

I suspect that’s also true of a retarder, but having driven both the retarder had much more retarding capabilies than a Jake. It might be over kill since a retarder set to its highest level is a crazy thing, but it’s certainly way more braking capacity than a Jake.

[Archived]

The two work exactly the same when they are “on” with one exception.

If the retarder master switch is “on” but the stalk is in the “off” position the retarder will not assist in slowing when you lift off the gas, but as soon as you work the brake the retarder is engaged proportionate to the amount of braking force. A Jake has no provision for being on “standby” to assist with braking. It has to be on one of its “on” positions and then it is working when you lift off the gas.

I like that feature of the retarder. When driving in hilly country where the slopes are moderate I can have my retarder stalk in the “off” poistion so I can allow some free increases in speed on the downhill side of the slope, but it is still there with no input from me if I need to get on the brakes. For the Jake to do the same it has to be “off” and then if I want help with braking I have to engage it, and there are instances where there is no time to hit the button.

In case you are not aware when we talk about a retarder’s controls, the coach has an on-off switch. That is the master switch and it is somewhere on the dash or side switch panel. Then there is a stalk that looks like a miniature turn signal lever on the RH side of the steering column. In the full up position it is “off”, but if you pull it down you have six positions of slowing power available. The first position is the least amount of braking, and the last position all the way down provides the maximum braking action when you lift your foot from the gas.

[Cathy & John]

With the stalk in the 6th position, you get serious braking right down to almost stoping before touching the brake. It also downshifts the transmission in proportion to the needed braking.

This is my firest retarder and it’s way better than a jake. The downside is transmission temps on really long hills, you have to pay attention.

[Bob]

Jon,

Excellent explaination on the retarder. During the test drive, I didn’t realize that when the switch is on and you start braking with the stalk in the upper position that it still operates. Good to know.

The retarder on/off switch in now located on the smart steering wheel on the right side at your finger tips.

MM.

[Archived]

I have had both have crossed the Rockies with both. The retarder is by far superior in my experience. That being said the retarder would not be a deal breaker if I was looking at a coach.

[Clifford]

Most folks are concerned about transmission temps when using a retarder. I was relieved to see the very generous transmission cooler that Prevost uses in my ’04 Vantare (retarder equipped). It’s plumbed downstream from the coolant pump just before the DD S60 oil cooler, and it’s huge! On a long downhill the transmission transfers the heat into the cooler which is then cooled by the dedicated S60 radiator; dedicated because there’s no call for S60 engine power during long decents. The retarder and transmission cooler can be designed to tranfer heat as if the system has 100% use of the engine radiator. The size of the transmission cooler is key in getting the heat from the retarder to the engine’s radiator, and Prevost didn’t scrimp!

There is an ’05 XLII for sale on Parliament’s site that’s equipped with both a transmission retarder and jake brakes. Coming from a Wanderlodge where redundancy is king, I’d really like to have both! 🙂

[Peter]

The retarder functions much like a torque converter in reverse. As it works to “lock up” (for lack of a better description) it is generating heat which is absorbed by the Transynd. I believe the difference between my XL which had a retarder and the current XLII is the transmission temperature gauge on the XL was at the fluid output where the temps were the greatest, and just prior to the intercooled.

The XLII has apparently got a different temperature reading point, and as David points out the intercooler seems to be larger.

But not to worry. If you have been ignoring transmission oil temps while using the retarder the computer(s) are working with you, and if the Transynd temp reaches its upper limit the computer will reduce the effectiveness of the retarder so as not to damage the oil or transmission.

We are going to have to rely on MM and others with newer coaches to report on the differences in them.

[Corey]

About the differences in converters I thought of the following scenario and it got me thinking. I can imagine pulling up to the Canadian border in my future H3 with my blackberry phone in hand saying to the guard,” Hey, does driving a Canadian made Prevost with a blackberry phone make me an honorary Canadian so I can get across the border faster?”

I then remembered that Apple and in some cases the Android phones are the interface with the Crestron and Savant systems. Well a Prevost is expensive, nothing is hack proof, but with security being important, could I go to a converter and have my blackberry be the link to the Crestron system for access to the cameras and the coach controls? It seems the system should be available to either all phones or the most secure.

After all I wound not want the bored campground teenager hacking in to my coach security cameras to see the dog chewing something or watching me. However I need the camera to see that it is safe when I am not there.

So which converter if any could link my blackberry to the device on the coach? Or would I have to pay blackberry a fee to make a program for the Crestron, or get a complete ground up blackberry made Crestron counterpart?

[Bob]

You are not serious are you?

It’s bad enough that a coach and its systems are out of date and not supported before they are ten years old, yet you want to add another layer of sophistication to a coach?

The speed with which electronics go from current technology to old unsupported devices is the absolute scariest part of owning a Prevost conversion.

Even if I had a cell phone that could do fancy stuff such as turn on the lights, I am hard pressed to even think of why I would want to do that.

[Archived]

Well you see that’s what I am wondering too. Because as I see mobile technology get included in the coaches build, standard not optional right, Crestron seems to have been there longer than particular versions of phones.

If I were to link my phone to the coach, obsolescence would be a concern. This makes me lean on swtches more than remotes that go obsolete.

I guess for security one could opt to not install the phone portion and just leave it as a dedicated coach remote. Wonder if it’s pushing the boundary of too much technology huh?

Like “Honey the suns to bright lower the blinds cuz the remote is too far away. Never mind I got my phone to do it.” so, yeah I guess it’s a question of how much is too much. Granted I don’t want 20 remotes for DVR, tv’s, satellites, stereos etc. So I see an advantage there, but blinds and lights remotely? Hhhmmm.

Might settle on dedicated panels of switches for blinds, lights and climate control. That’s how I originally wanted it set up when I get one. It’s just that seeing the new features gets one thinking. This is the part where needs and wants are separated right?:)