[Reagan]

At the Prevost rally in Oklahoma City, when the seminar by United Engines was underway, the expert from Detroit stated that synthetic could be used but it should be changed at the regular interval of the non synthetic product…. I believe that is correct, if I am remembering correctly.

Best,

Pres

[Archived]

I think the engines we have were designed for a lot of steady use. I will yield to Mark on this if he disagees because he has large truck fleet experience, but we are not particularly easy on our engines because we run them so rarely.

I have often read the first few moments of running time after a cold start is the time period when the greatest engine wear is encountered. Unlike commercial vehicles that do not sit for long periods, we allow our engines to sit for weeks or months at a time so the lubrication on all wear surfaces has drained. When we start the engine after it has been dormant those adjacent surfaces are “dry” and until the lubircant has circulated and been restored the engine experiences metal to metal contact.

Over the years I have had moments when I wondered if it is in the best interests of engine life to switch to a synthetic, especially one that tends to stick to surfaces. I think it might be, but then reality seems to set in. I may lose a large percentage of engine life as a result of my type of coach use. maybe 20% maybe 50%. I don’t know how much. But even if I lose 50% and go from a million mile engine to a 500,000 mile engine the chances are I am not going to wear my engine out, especially since I do 5000 mile oil changes.

However, if I planned on living another 41 years and average 12,000 miles on the coach annually to get 500,000 miles more I might consider the change.

Bottom line I’ll stick with the oil that comes from old dinosaurs because I could use the extra money synthetics cost to add to my collection of Lennon Sisters 8 tracks.

[Davy]

Just from my own life experiences, I have found that stuff designed to run on fossil oil has a greater propensity to leak if a change is made to synthetic. So I won’t be doing that.

The TDI, CRD, and Bluetec are factory speced to run on 5w30 fully synthetic, no leaks. Advantages: quicker flow on cold start, high temp tolerant, long lasting. Disadvantage: $.

[Dawn]

Before PC my only access to Prevost owners and drivers was in the entertainment area of busing. Those guys recommended that I run non synthetic in the engine and full synthetic in the transmission. They run nearly 100,000 miles per year so I figured they know what they are talking about.

As Jon said some of our buses sit for weeks and months so that may be different for them. I do not run a bunch of miles each year but I do run nearly every week.

Davy

[Fred F.]

Ok, got it, especially the Lennon sisters tapes.

Was just at Prevost Jax, they seemed to have no thoughts towards running Synthetic either.

thanks.

[Gary]

I’ve run synthetic for years in my S60. I do have oil analysis done at each change primarily looking for diesel fuel or coolant contamination. I’ve had no issues on the S60 but my previous 8V92 required action a couple of times on contamination issues.

I suppose if someone who runs dino oil, changes it at the same intervals as myself (10K) and drives their coach at a similar weight, temp conditions, etc, and has oil analysis by the same company, we could probably figure out which oil is better!

[Dick]

Jon…Back when I flew, it was a matter of routine that I would “pull” my engine (Continental IO-520) through before starting it up. I would take a blade and pull it to turn the engine over several times, supposedly to “oil” the engine surfaces to prevent some of the wear that takes place with a cold and un-oiled engine.

Too bad we can’t do the same thing with our Series 60’s.

The only thing I do is to try and avoid the starts when it’s only for a few minutes.

[Peter]

I once parked by a guy that had a PT35 Bluebird with a Cat, I think a 3208. He was reaching into the engine compartment (pusher) pushing a button. Said he was pre oiling the engine before the cold start.

So, has anyone installed a pre oiler pump on one of these S60s?

[Archived]

I thought you had all of the Lennon Sisters and their grandkids records by now.

Congrats to you and Di on the New Ole Car. Does it have 8 track player?

[Andy]

Most wear and tear takes place on the start and stop of any engine. With the series 60 there would be some advantage for a pre-oiler but would it promote the longevity of the engine ?

Moreimportant to starting, condition of the starting batteries and starter. Our engines fire up because of the initial burst of spin energy. Once that sweet spot is missed fuel injected into the cylinder washes that thin oil coat off cylinder walls. That’s when we crank over and over trying too get any one of the 6 cylinders to fire thus starting the engine.

Years ago there were compression relieve valves to aid the rapid turn over of the engine. It only took a second to spin then operator would close the valve. I had one of these systems on a DD 671 engine and in my opinion one of the best diesel engines ever made. If they were naturally aspirated they would run forever. Engine stress comes with the installation of a turbo. We like power and turbos do that very well.

As a kid I remember our neighbor a contractor using a small gas engine which engaged the main diesel engine spinning it fast enough so it would fire. When the engine start happened a hugh cloud of black smoke from the exhaust stack. It was something to see.

Another and maybe some of the old truckers might remember the air starter. That system used compressed air stored in an on board tank injected I believe into the side of the flywheel. It had a very unique sound that traveled for long distance whirling the engine with a short powerful burst.

With more powerful and better built 24 volt starters this was a better way and is preferred today.

[Archived]

We prime the oil pump on race engines. They have a Dry sump system driven by a belt. So we slip the belt off, attach a cordless drill to it, and pump oil through before we start. (just on the first start of the day)

Never have any wear on bearings. We just have to worry about pistons, rods, and valve springs.

Be nice to have a primer on the 60’s…………but then like Jon says, most of us won’t drive them enough to wear them out anyway.

[Bernie]

Like Jerry, we prime the engine of the #90 Heilig-Meyers Ford at the beginning of the day, but we heat the old to 180 degrees first. I use Joe Gibbs Racing Oil which is synthetic. My engine builder and the Joe Gibbs engineers have told me the oil needs to be “up to temp” before it really starts to work in a high stress racing engine application, probably doesn’t apply to our Detroit Diesels. In spite of all that prep, when I start the engine I never switch the ignition on until the starter has turned the engine over enough to give me oil pressure.

We used the same procedure with a Twin Beech 18 on floats that had a pair Pratt & Whitney R-985s … never switch the ignition on until we had oil pressure. Never bring the power up until the oil temp comes up.

I had the race car at the engine builder once for some valve train work. After heating the oil I was priming the oil with the cordless drill. The engine guy, Joe Rhyne reached into the car, pulled the trans out of gear, flipped the master on, and hit the starter to turn the engine over. He did this a number of times while I primed the engine with oil. He explained that if you don’t turn the engine over while priming that all of the oil passages don’t get opened up and exposed to the flow of oil. Made sense to me.

So the engine above that can be primed, I would surmise that without spinning the engine during the prime it isn’t getting the full benefit of the prime.

Now with these computerized engines in the Prevosts, I wonder why they aren’t programmed so the computer knows how long its been since being shut off, can determine if the engine needs to be primed or not, and if it needs to be primed with oil the computer allows the engine to spin with the starter until there is oil pressure (indicating the engine is primed), and then allows the engine to start. Too much wear and tear on the starter? Or are we worrying about that problem that doesn’t exist. Interesting question for Detroit Diesel.

[Peter]

I think any questions we might ask the Detroit or Volvo engineers would be out of context for them.

They design engines that are built to run long hours at a time (we likely meet that criteria) that are rarely turned off, and when they are turned off, they are likely to be started and run within a short time period. We fail on those two points.

Like others I flew, and on my last plane which I had for almost 25 years and in which I ran 3 engines to TBO I wasn’t always able to get a pre-heat, never could circulate oil through it prior to start, but never had issues. All of the TSIO-520 engines went the whole way to TBO. But one rule I followed was what Continental said in the owners manual. I waited until I got some warmth to the engine before going above a low idle, and I never jammed the throttle from idle to take-off power, but applied full power briskly.

I think the same practice is also good for our coaches. When we start let it run at low idle for a while. Give it a chance to get some heat in it and to get oil moving around in the engine. Then after a few minutes step it up to high idle. Letting it show heat on the temperature gauge takes forever, so after it has run a while, warm it up by driving at moderate engine speeds.

I am sure pre-oiling and warming the engine with the Webasto before starting is going to extend the engine life, but I have my doubts we will ever have any way of quantifying the benefit. I think the same applies to synthetic versus conventional oil. It is likely better for the engine, but how will we know.

[Fred F.]

Have personal friend who is the tech specialist for Crete trucking in Lenoir,City ,Tn and has worked on Detriots for years. Asking him the same question abt oil change intervals & oil type his reply is that Crete did their own research based on years of driving and maintenance records concluded that oil change/ filter intervals will increase from 40k to 50k miles with oil analysis using conventional oil. His recommendation to me with D60 was 15k miles conventional oil for peace of mind !

The point being in our lifetimes how many of us know of someone losing an Engine due to oil breakdown? Modern oils are designed to much higher standards also.

Yeap them airplanes have to be flown so many hours/ month of else! Maybe that’s just a FAA thing? Had two Cessna’s & a Piper, never read any accident report abt a complete engine failure, only human error due to someone usually just performing maintence or pilot error . Only my two cents worth guys.

[Archived]

I think the key thing to remember is an an engine should have a load put on it without first being given an opportunity to warm the oil, the water (if it uses water), the heads (if air cooled), and hence most of the engine before a load is put on it. That holds true for an airplane, a pickup or Suburban, a big truck, and our Prevosts.

Anyone who starts a cold engine and quickly hammers it is doing irrepairable damage every time they it.