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Side panel delamination on XLII models
This is kind of a FYI, so here goes….
I have a 2008 Legendary conversion (2006 model year chassis) that was purchased new in October of 2009. I was the first owner and as such, got the Prevost, Detroit and Allison warranty. When we are not on the road using the coach, it is parked in a heated garage.
I have had some water leaks since the day we got the coach. One that is in the front slide out area and another in bay 3 drivers side. I also had and currently have loose side panels on this coach. In fact, after we took delivery of the coach, I found out that the dealer had it at the Ft. Worth branch to get it checked for recalls, and do a code scan prior to delivery. While it was there, numerous panels were determined to be loose, but only one was worked on ( bay 4 passenger side). I did not find out about this until after we took delivery, and didn’t really know too much about this particular problem at the time. I did however, read up on the subject and with the new information in my hand made an appointment to get this issue looked at. In the summer of 2010, I had the panel inspection done at Prevost TN. The factory authorized repairs on my coach which were done that fall at Prevost TN. There were several areas that got repaired, both upper and lower.
I still have my water leaks, despite having the coach back twice more for that issue. The leak in the front slide area is not as bad, but still will leak at times, and the bay 3 leak is still there too. I recently took a close look at some of the areas that were repaired in 2010 and found what looks like the repair is failing. I also found some other panels that are loose that were not repaired before.
So today, I called Bill Jensen at Prevost to discuss this ongoing issue. He indicated that they are doing the repairs differently now using rivets and a cover strip. I had seen reference to this over at POG so I knew what he was talking about. The process is that I need to go to a Prevost service center for another inspection and then wait for the answer from Prevost Canada as to what they are willing to do, and how much of the cost they will cover. I brought up the fact during the conversation that there is documentation to the effect that my coach had this problem before I even picked it up, and that I thought Prevost should be shouldering the cost of the repair.
It was Bill’s suggestion that I take it to Prevost at Jacksonville as they have the most experience with this issue. I am unable to get down there for a few weeks, but will be making an appointment and getting the inspection done as soon as I can.
I will update this post after I have more information on what is going to be done and whether Prevost is going to stand behind this. I sincerely hope that Prevost understands how important this issue is and will step up to the plate and take care of it. I am concerned not only with the panels being loose, but with water getting in, what other damage is going to show up?
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170 Replies
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Keep us posted on your progress Mark. The end result of the Rivet
Process looks really good and sounds like it is a permanent fix. This
is a picture I took at Marathon of a coach with the process
completed.
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and a driver’s window that opens larger than your hand.
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Update: I have an appointment for April 15th in Jacksonville to get my coach looked at for the panel issues. Just so everyone is clear, when you go for the inspection, you don’t get any repairs done. They do the inspection, forward it to Prevost Canada and wait for them to decide what they will or will not do and how much they will pay towards the total bill. I was told that it would be summer before I could get the coach in for repairs as they are backed up at present.
I just did a little calculation on just what it will cost in fuel to make two round trips from Duluth, MN to Jacksonville, FL for this exercise. 3072 miles round trip times 2 = 6144 miles dived by 5.5 MPG =1117 gallons of fuel at $4.25 per gallon comes out to $4747. And this is just the cost of fuel! I suppose fuel could come down between now and then, but that is what I just saw yesterday on a sign locally for diesel.
Then you have to look at the time to get it repaired. It could take weeks to get it done completely including paint work. So I would likely have to either drive the toad or fly home and back, as sitting there for week(s) is likely not feasible. So then you add on those costs (fuel, food and motels if one drives, cab fare and air fare if one flies) to the above. Even with Prevost picking up the entire cost of repair, it is still a pricey venture.
If we can work a vacation into one end or the other, it would help somewhat, and we will likely try to do that. But the fact remains it will take two trips to get it done.
I guess this problem isn’t so little, or simple when one thinks it through…..and it appears that many of us who own XLII’s will be doing this very exercise, so get ready to make your plans!
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Thanks for the update Mark, I feel your pain for the time and expense ahead of you.
My bus was already scheduled for the Rivet Process when I purchased it and I will be taking mine to Jax on May 1st. This process will take a minimum of 4 weeks at Prevost and then another 2 or 3 for paint. I will lose the bus for 6 to 7 weeks, but I’m fortunate to only be about 400 miles form Jax and my expense will be chump change compared to Mark.
Like Mark said, if you have an XLII, you may want to get your inspection done ASAP because of scheduling.
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Look at the bright side.
You could own a propeller aircraft with an engine close to TBO. That bill is somewhere around $45K (IO520) or close to 30% of the value of the plane. And once you get the new engine, you enjoy double or triple infant mortality rates for the first 200 hours. Avgas is $6/gal and you burn 17 gal/hour on your way to the $200 hamburger. And that GPS upgrade that costs you $200, costs about $20,000 installed thanks to FAA certification (Garmin GTN750). And you still can’t sleep in it (the plane).
So owning an XLII is not that bad after all. Also, getting 5.5 miles/gal you must be going 75-80mph or tow the QE2. Slow down to 60 mph and you’ll see better than 7mpg. Cuts a quarter off your fuel bill.
Anyway, looking at the expense as a percent of book value might ease the sting. If the fix is permanent, you’d easily add that much or more to the resale value of the coach.
Gerald
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Gerald, I am certain Mark will allow you to show him how to get 7 MPG. In fact everyone with later model Series 60 coaches would like the demonstration.
Compared to your Series 60 rivet coach our XLII coaches have added emissions equipment and standards which has cost mileage. To add to the stuff hung on the engine our coaches have gained weight compared to the XL. So the bottom line appears to be to do exactly as you suggest with lower speeds and light weight toads, but Mark’s MPG is typical.
Mark makes an excellent point of the costs associated with taking a coach for service. I have led a sheltered life because my travel miles for service is zero, but if any of us has to travel any distance for service the cost just for fuel is staggering. Whatever the repair I would want absolute proof it was done right so I wouldn’t have to return.
As to skin repairs Tom and I have seen the process. I have confidence it deals completely with the problem, but for anyone who has an XLII it has to be understood it takes a lot of time, involves paint work, and is very expensive. From my perspective there is no suitable alternative to having Prevost make the repairs because they do it right. It can be done cheap or right. but not both.
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Im still looking and will probably be buying this month. Looked at Newel and have decided to go with a prevost. I really like the looks of the xl2 and trying to understand the logic in buying one and then facing this panel thing. I have talked to a bunch of xl2 owners and they don’t seem to have a clue about the delam.
Why would you buy from a dealer or owner that doesn’t even know about the panels
Why would you buy an xl2 knowing the panel has to be fixed and you are going to pay for it
The xl2s are getting cheaper, is the delam why
If you buy a new xl3 are you going to lose the bus for 2 months after 4 years for the panel work
Does the xl3 have rivets
Sorry for all the questions and just trying understand before spending my money. The XL sure looks better.
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I’ll post my spin on this as an owner of an XLII. I cannot answer all the questions based on facts, but I can offer an opinion.
The owners trying to sell you a coach may not want to discuss the issue because it may devalue the coach in your mind and they of course want to get as much for a coach as possible. Ditto for dealers. But the issue has been discussed on this and other sites and to the best of my knowledge it is not being swept under the rug. I recently bought a coach that had skin issues, and it was repaired and the dealer was absolutely open about the issue. Keep in mind it is possible some have skin issues, but it is also possible some have no issues at all, either having been repaired or not having an issue ever.
I think all coaches are getting lower prices because of depreciation, but my guess is the market has bottomed due to the economy’s collapse, and in some cases prices are getting firm, if not going up. I suspect the skin issue has an impact but Prevost has not walked away from the issue and is contributing if not paying for all repairs after they evaluate the coach and the situation.
In this past year some very knowledgible owners have bought XLII coaches including Tom and I showing we have less concern than your post might suggest. We are very much aware of the issue and were very much aware when we bought our coaches. I hope I never have a problem with my coach, but if I do I can tell you that as expensive as the repairs will be they are to be considered (by me) as a cost of ownership. My annual depreciation makes the cost of repairs look like pocket change. If I had a very early XLII then the cost of repairs relative to the coach value are expensive but I am guessing selling prices reflect all factors including the ones relating to skins. I would guess a coach that has had the current repair process is going to have a greater value than one not having the current type of repairs, but again, that is only a guess.
If you are buying a specific coach and you or the owner feel it has skin issues the only people who can answer the question regarding who pays for the repairs is Prevost and the only way for Prevost to answer the question is to start with having the coach inspected at a service center.
I cannot answer your questions regarding an X3. That has to be answered by Prevost or a converter.
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Mark
Just a suggestion. What about trying to take it to St. Nicholas, Quebec Prevost service center. I would think it is closer than Jacksonville.
I had my 2006 Royale done there in 2008 the whole process, at that time, only took 4 weeks including inspection and approval. As a first owner and out of warantee I was not charged for the total reskin and paint. This was also my first Prevost so I had no history with them before that. They did good work. Ask for Guillaume Charron service center manager or Stephane Lord service manager Tel. 866-870-2046 or 418-831-2046
Be careful of having them do any work that you might have to pay for because of the VAT (tax) both Quebec and Canada.
The are only about 30 miles from the factory.
Good luck!
To answer the question about the new X3, We just took delvery of the first conversion in June, they are not rivited just glued. As Jon stated we also have confidence in the new process.
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Tjones,
Those are valid questions and I’ll just make a comment based on my own experience.
I’m on my 5th bus, the first 4 being XL’s with rivets. This one is a 2001 Liberty and we wanted to move up to the XLII because of the bigger windows and more open to the outside feeling you get. What I gained other than the windows was a current model Prevost with 365’s on the tag and steer, IFS and smooth sides.
I was not in position to roll the dice with panel problems and chose to purchase from Liberty with the Rivet Process already in the works and when it’s done, I’ll have piece of mind knowing that the delamination is a thing of the past for me and in my opinion, it will add value to the bus.
Can you find an XLII that does not have the delamination problem, of course. You as the buyer will have to do your due diligence and enter into your transaction with the knowledge that you have learned, assuring you have done your homework. Maybe you will find one in your price range that has already been done, or, you may find a great deal where you can just plan on the Rivet Process and still remain within your budget. Even better, you find one with no panel problems and you’re in the driver seat.
Bottom line, it will be up to you to make a deal that fits within your budget and only you can sort that out. So go buy a bus and join the fun.
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Jim: Yes it is closer to go to Quebec, but Bill Jensen from Prevost said that Jacksonville was the place to go, and had the most experience with this problem, so we made our appointment there. Plus, I am not looking to go someplace colder than it has been here!
Glad your repairs were done well on your old coach. From what I have seen and heard, the folks at Jacksonville are doing good work too.
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Mark
Your posts are interesting as I believe to have the same problem. I had an ’01 Thompson with a small delamination problem that Prevost NJ took care of for me years ago. My experience with Prevost NJ has been very good as I have used them exclusively for most everything I need from service to tires. I always feel like they go out of their way to take care of me, hopefully that won’t change. Honestly, it was the reason for my remaining a Prevost customer as we looked for a newer coach. A little over a month ago I traded my Thompson for an ’07 Marathon with 47k miles, a few small gliches but nothing really problematic. My understanding was that Prevost had recently replaced the rear slide bladder. My first rainstorm I had water (wet carpet) next to the bed in the rear slide lower front corner. Upon further inspection I realized that in the 3rd bay drivers side (where my inverters are housed), the carpet covered wood panel that covers the inverters was rotted all along the bottom. Which indicated to me that there is a slow leak that kept the wood in a constant wet state. Its also my understanding that the prior owner also used Prevost and Marathon for service. So last night we had some rain here in Southern Florida and I got water in the 3rd bay and another wet carpet. So it seems that we have similar problems, I find it interesting that your coach is an ’06 production as is mine. Spent some time around the coach today and realized that I have a few loose panels, I’m also concerned with the integrity of the stainless steel molding that runs along the length of the coach as I think one of the leaks is coming from that. I’m starting to miss my Thompson. -
Rick,
Your best contact at Prevost Jacksonville is John Kincaid, he’s the service manager and deals with the panel issues daily.
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Rick
I find it very interesting that our leaks seem so similar, and that we both have ’06 model year chassis coaches. Keep us posted with what you find out from Prevost.
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