[Archived]

One of the coaches we looked at before we purchased had the Pittsburgh Power upgrades. They sound great. How was your mileage affected?

[Archived]

That upgrade has been widely discussed. It is my opinion (not necessarily correct) that our engines are designed to meet the certification standards applicable when they are sold, and mileage and performance must take a back seat to the EPA standards because without the certification the engine cannot be sold.

Having said that I am all in favor of anything that helps with mileage and performance. What I would question is does the upgrade negate the certification, and if so will all Detroit dealers service the engine if needed? Is the upgrade accepted by Detroit Diesel?

If Detroit Diesel does not recognize the upgrade as being acceptable, is there a stated reason?

Is the engine upgrade biased towards performance or mileage? What is the difference in mileage, if any?

If the engine is in fact producing more power, what is the long term impact to the engine? A lot has been posted on other sites about cylinder pressure increases, higher exhaust gas temps, etc. Have any tests been done to compare the original engine design and operating range to the upgrade?

Does this upgrade do away with the EGR? The EGR system does rob power and it has been reported it shortens the engine life and specifically the life of the number 6 cylinder. Eliminating the EGR increases emissions unless the upgrade addresses that.

I am ready willing and able to upgrade my engine to improve mileage and performance, even if it means my engine does not meet emission standards because I remain unconvinced that somehow burning more fuel is better for the environment.

[Liam]

I just calculated it and we’re amazed. We used to get about 6.5 mpg. On the trip from Beaumont, CA to Polson, MT, we averaged 7.5mpg. Huge improvement. Now, we also had the CAC replaced, so that probably had something to do with the improvement too, but not that much!

[Cathy & John]

Is this the product your talking about?

If so, they posted this on their website in April:

The Pittsburgh Power Engineering Center is now open. This new facility adds four service bays, two chassis dyno bays, an engine dyno test cell, engine blueprinting room, expanded machine shop and three full time engineers. Located directly behind our existing shop in Saxonburg, Pennsylvania this facility centralizes our product development, expands our capabilities and shop capacity. We are adding an emissions test lab to our Engineering Center to ensure that our products and services maintain the EPA emissions compliance standards for the engine families we work with.

That may answer one of your questions, Jon. It seems at least they intend to remain EPA compliant.

I am perfectly content with the power and performance of my engine but it is an interesting discussion to watch.

Davy

[Archived]

Pittsburgh Power was waiting for testing of the system to be approved by Detroit. It only just came available for use in June. Visit their website at http://www.pittsburghpower.com for more info. John’s always enjoyed driving this bus, but he told me that it’s like a sports car now. Just a bigger version. We don’t go much over 65 ever, particularly with towing the CRV, but its responsiveness now is amazing. The bus has always been a bit sluggish from a stop, but that has dramatically improved as well.

[Greg]

I went to the web site earlier but did not see any details regarding compliance, the EGR or if Detroit approves.

It is a huge win-win for all of us if we improve power, mileage, have a Detroit approved modification and it is EPA compliant.

I am going to contact them.

[Archived]

How much costed?

[Clifford]

According to the web site the cost for a DDEC V upgrade is $2525.

So I started thinking about how important improving mileage and power is to me in the context of cost. My motivation would be improved mileage with a secondary benefit of power to climb hills. This needs to be put in perspective however. I have ample power now. As a percentage of my driving time it is almost inconsequential when I consider the amount of time I cannot maintain my set speed. I doubt if 1% of my driving is on hills that are steep enough to prevent me from maintaining my speed. Further, even if I had ample power about half of the hills cannot be driven at normal cruise speed because trucks will usually take all lanes trying to maintain their speeds compared to slower trucks. So when I think about added power it would be nice, but not very important.

Mileage is more important to me, and I can quantify its benefit in terms of dollars, but I cannot add a value to reducing visits to truck stops, although that is probably as important to me as saving a few dollars.

If I assume the upgrade can return an additional 1 MPG that can translate into savings. I’ll use round numbers just because it makes the math easier. Assume I get 6 MPG now. Assume I get 7 MPG with the upgrade, and that fuel cost is $40. Let’s assume my annual miles driven is 12,000.

That means currently based on the above numbers I can expect to use 2000 gallons or $8000 worth of fuel as I am currently set up. If I increase my mileage to 7 I expect to use 1714 gallons or $6857 for a savings of around $1150 per year. In a little over 2 years the upgrade pays for itself if the fuel savings assumption is valid.

But the Pittsburgh Power site claims a savings of .3 MPG which is not enough for me to justify the effort or expense associated with the upgrade.

I am a cynic. I don’t even believe my mileage numbers unless they are based on a substantial amount of miles and gallons. So here are some numbers to consider. For 10,000 miles of use my mileage was 5.9 MPG. That mileage encompassed every kind of driving from flat roads, to hills, tailwinds and headwinds, summer use of OTR and towing our H2 Hummer.

I then modified my coach. I added a device called “Ugly Fix” which fools the engine so the EGR does not function. With a non-functioning EGR my mileage for 9500 miles went up by about .4 MPG. That is similar to the improvement claimed by Pittsburgh Power on their web site.

The 9500 mile block of travel was the same as the 10,000 mile block of mileage which was my base. Up and down hills, flat roads, towing the Hummer into head winds and with tail winds. The mileage in both instances was calculated by the Pro-Driver, but I verified it by adding up every gallon of fuel I added to the coach and doing the math. The Pro-Driver and old fashioned method of adding and dividing agreed.

I know from experience that one or two tanks of fuel will not provide meaningful information. Our coaches are impacted to a great extent by everything from hills to winds to speed so the real information has to reflect a very large block of data. FWIW I drive at a consistent 61-62 MPG so any variable relating to speed has been eliminated.

Bottom line, the Pittsburgh Power upgrade would be very important if I lived in the west, was always climbing hills or mountains or needed improved acceleration. But I don’t live out west. Until I can see 1 MPG improvements in mileage I cannot justify $2525.

[Ken]

2500 is just for the ECM out here in the west most truckers and buses run the Performance Diesel setup from St George Ut it can get into the 10 grand + range with the ECM, manifold,turbo and cam not worth it on a RV IMO enjoy the ride

[Archived]

Cathy and John,

I have a question about the
increase in fuel mileage you have seen. Is that increase from the
Prodriver or is it from the old fashion method of doing the math at each
fill up? I ask because the ECM calculates fuel mileage based
on tables that are in the ECM program. Now you have another box that’s
tricking the ECM into sending more fuel to engine or the box could
manipulate the the injectors into giving more fuel. Try the old tank to
tank fill up method a few times just make sure the Prodriver is correct.

To answer the question is this box approved or going to be approved by Detroit? No not ever.

To answer the question is this box approved or going to be approved by the EPA? No not ever.

Ken

[Archived]

Few things here:

ANY time you add more power to a diesel but drive it easy you are going to see better MPG.

On my Duramax with EFI Live I have another 65HP or so and lot more torque; on one out of 5 maps I can select on the fly, I get about 8/10ths better with this than the stock tune. Thousands of others have experienced the same thing, the hotter the tune and the easier you drive it the better the MPG will be.

Pittsburgh Power knows thier stuff, and they may know more about the Series 60 than anyone else.

The power box has been around a while, they stopped selling it awhile back as they had to have everything EPA tested….how they got it approved or allowed to sell I do not know, but lots of Class8 truckers been using it for along time with great results. NO WAY is it DDC approved and never will be, just like any of the tuners for the light duty diesels!

Bully Dog also sells one and a smiliar price….from what I have heard of service and support I would very much lean to Pittsburgh.

My one MAJOR concern is in the Allison. In my LBZ Duramax when running the hotter tune and hooked up to 16,000lbs I will slip the converter if I forget to pull the cruise control when I hit a hill or grade. I have never limped the transmission (threw a code) but have for sure slipped the torque converter multiple times. So far it has held up great with nearly 300k miles on it and 200k of those all over the road heavy towing miles.

Now on the B500/ MH4000 I am not sure how stout it is and the torque converter situation. I just weighed my bus full of water and full of fuel and it was just over 47K I think ( do not have slip in front of me ).

Adding more weight with a toad or trailer is only going to add stress to the transmission, but I have a 40ft with no slides, I know others here with 45’s, slides heavier interiors are already my weight when I have a stacker trailer hooked up…so….I think we need to understand or learn what the Allison is capable of.

You can throw a bunch more power at it but when you add more weight IME that may cause problems.

For those that run very few miles I doubt that this is worth it…most of the truck guys are buying it for MPG reasons and it can pay for itself pretty quick. I need to do some mods as my MPG is pretty lackluster and I know the PRE EGR 12.7 can get really good economy, but need to get air in and air out and possibly something like the power box.

[Archived]

I agree Ken it is not going to happen with DD and the EPA

[Archived]

Improving MPG on coaches like we drive is like trying to squeeze out that last bit of toothpaste from the tube. Maybe there is some degree of satisfaction knowing you have achieved the maximum in economy from the coach, but in the overall scheme of things it is pretty silly.

Regardless of how new or old our coaches are, it is probable that in almost all instances our depreciation is going to be significantly greater than how many dollars we can save in fuel costs. But if I am trying to save fuel I drive slow, avoid hills, keep the bus parked when there are strong headwinds, I don’t tow, and I drive with as little weight as possible. Interestingly, lightening the load also helps preformance so to improve both MPG and hill climbing performance my new policy is to empty the bays, cabinets, the water tank, etc.

OK, back to being serious………Many years ago when DDEC engines first came into being it wasn’t long before owners realized they could get more power from the engines with some reprogramming. I cannot remember if it involved just rewriting some code or if it means changing the ECM, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. Changing the HP is the beginning. Additional HP means more heat and all of our coaches have been tested based on their horsepower from the factory. If that HP is changed the engine has to undergo additional testing to determine what changes, if any need to be made to the cooling system.

Detroit will not honor a warranty for an engine that has not had its location or cooling system checked and certified for a specific engine horsepower. Prevost spends very serious money getting the engine bay and cooling system accepted by Detroit or Volvo. So how is Pittsburgh power dealing with cooling on an engine that is developing XXX more HP than the original? Just when you need the power the engine is going to de-rate itself when temps and conditions approach or exceed the limits for the engine. If you are considering additional power, make sure you know all that is involved and have given thought to all the factors.

[joel]

Maybe Ken knows where the cut off for HP is on a standard series 60 I know high hp marine engines use totaly different internal parts the series 60’s look sad with the rod on the outside of the block lol I had one

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1999 XLV X-6872,  liberty #440

[Darrell]

I just made a 1300 mile trip, pulling my stacker, with the total weight of 69,000 lbs. I ran 65-70 the whole way, and passed every truck I came to going up hills.

I don’t need any more power……

5 mpg pulling the trailer.