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OLDER COACHES
We are approaching the time when under ordinary circumstances a lot of nearly new coaches would be available in the market, but because of the economic conditions in the late 2000 model years there is getting to be lack of coaches.
Even as the economy appears to have recovered production of new coaches is nowhere near the volume it once was.
So potential buyers have three options. The first is to try to acquire one of the newer coaches when they reach the market. A buyer has to be prepared to move fast if that is going to happen. Some model years have almost no coaches. The second option is to buy an older coach, and with the money that would have been spent on a newer conversion, update and zero out the coach to make it in new condition. The final option is to not buy a coach.
Just because of the numbers the second option is what buyers are tending to do.
With new coaches being priced in seven figures it makes available coaches from 2007 and older seem like absolute bargains, and they are. Even coaches as old as 20 years (about the time they came with Series 60 engines) represent an incredible value and with a mid 5 figure budget they can be mechanically refreshed, can have a refurbished interior, and can offer reliability similar to a new coach. But buyers have to be fully aware as the coach gets older in the marketplace, and the price gets lower part of the reason for what are very low prices is because it is going to take money to make them reliable and attractive.
Anyone contemplating the purchase of a coach needs to understand that even coaches built in the 2003 to 2007 model years are aging and during that time some components have reached the end of their useful life, or have been rendered obsolete, or have become passe because there are newer products or devices that have replaced them. Buyers need to reserve some of their budget for updates such as new pure sine wave inverters, or new hard surface floors, new tires, air bags or batteries, or just a complete underside updating to zero everything out. The older the coach, the greater the need unless service records reflect that has been done and a coach has been on a progressive maintenance program.
The bargains are out there, but there really are no free lunches. Keep in mind money spent to bring an older coach into like new condition is never going to have a return. Spending the money is only of value to the owner who is buying peace of mind. Some updates such as a quality paint job are completely disproportioate to the cost of the coach. It seems silly to spend $50,000 on a paint job for a $100,000 coach. But when the right coach comes along, and the owner intends to own it forever, some things that don’t seem to make a lot of sense are completely rational.
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61 Replies
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all true, Jon, and why we pulled the trigger on new electronics and soft stuff last year. Our paint is still beautiful, even with a few scratches, but I’ll think about that in the future too. You helped me do all of the undercarriage items last year, so I feel like we are sitting pretty.
One other thing I’ll add: my 2004/2014 is going to be hard to get rid of not only because the bugs are gone and everything I care about is updated, but I don’t want to deal with an EGR or DEF on an even newer coach. Perhaps one day we will go bigger with an H, but not sure… If we can keep living with size constraints I’d rather gut and redo mine, knowing it’ll never be worth what I pay.
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I was thinking of you as I wrote the post, along with others.
Any coach, regardless of age can have modifications to make it like newer coaches, or to include a lot of the features of newer coaches. And because of what happened when the economy took a hit around 2008 a lot of us may not have a choice in the matter if we want some additiona features.
To those who think of a coach as an investment……….think again. But I have never owned a depreciating asset that has provided so much pleasure that it makes all the money spent unimportant.
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“Keep in mind money spent to bring an older coach into like new condition is never going to have a return. Spending the money is only of value to the owner who is buying peace of mind … But when the right coach comes along, and the owner intends to own it forever, some things that don’t seem to make a lot of sense are completely rational.“
Totally agree Jon!
The key to your statement to “invest” in a depreciating asset is to locate & purchase what you believe to be the right coach for you and put money into it to keep it running/upgrade for the next 5-10 years, rather than trying to sell it too soon. Of course, I hope to do that, but one never knows.
However, like others on this forum, I’ve spent thousands on traveling in Europe, Australia, Hawaii, etc. and never received any “finanical” return on my investment … but I wouldn’t exchange those memories for any amount of money. I expect this next phase in my life to have a similiar return of investment …
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Jon,I totally agree and I have looked a a few coaches newer than my 2008 and the closet space is limited because of the exhaust stacks going through the roof has reduced the rear closet.I think that the sweet zone for me is the coach that I currently own as it has 6 – 8D batteries,2 – 3500 watt Outback inverters,the latest Prevost pinless slides,tankless water heater in addition to the 20 gallon water heater,California King bed,OTR with Cruise Airs and as stated earlier a full closet in the rear.I am not sure that it gets much better than the 05-08 coaches before the DPF motors as it is real easy to re-program the ECM on these coaches.
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Jack,
New technology brings new compromises but advantages also. The new Lithium Ion batteries that Liberty is using reduces massive amounts of weight. We have 3 house batteries with a life expectancy of a minimum of 10 yrs vs. 6 or 8 gel mat batteries with a life expectancy of 5 yrs. These Lithium Ion batteries can be rebuilt at a much reduced cost vs. replacing.
We have all of the new emission equipment…. Particulate Filter and Diesel Exhaust Fluid. This system reduces our emissions of pollutants. The air coming in goes out cleaner with our system (from what the experts say). Not a bad thing really.
If you have ever been to Los Angeles in the 70’s and saw what smog does to the atmosphere, you would appreciate the advantages of the components that offer cleaner air.
Safe travels,
MarkPS. And, I know everyone does not agree with additional equipment on an engine. I like new technology that helps the environment. Remember how everyone hated the catalytic converter from 1974?
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Mark,I do like the LI batteries and the weight savings,I do not embrace all new technology just because it is new.The required emission equipment that has been installed on the newer diesels is in my opinion is a determent to fuel mileage as well as decreased performance.I have had roof airs on a Renegade conversion since 1996 and I am on the third unit,I perfer Cruise Airs as I know that they are repairable and I can usually do that repair,roof airs are throw away units.I have looked at newer coaches and my wife always ask”how many inches of closet rod is in the coach”our coach has 128 inches and most of the newer ones that we have looked at have 65-80 inches.Don’t get me wrong I would love to have a new coach but the expense with the limited closet space as well as the systems that I cannot repair have kept me from purchasing a newer coach,I also only have 62,000 miles on my coach and I really love this coach.
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This is a little drift, but older coaches have the less complex engine systems going for them.
Like Mark I think keeping the environment clean is admirable, however we are clearly at the point of diminishing returns. At one time emissions were unregulated. The net result was definitely bad air. When the first emissions standards were imposed picture those emissions in your mind as being the size of a card table. With the next level of emissions standards which really tighened up the allowable pollutants the emissions could be represented on that card table by a post card. The drop in allowable emissions was very large. Today the newest regulations have tightened up the allowable emissions so they could be represented by a postage stamp.
To get to that point the coaches of today have very sophisticated ad-ons that recirculate exhaust gas, and filter particulates and require the use of DEF. The victim if there is any has been mileage and performance. To get the air cleaner we burn more fuel.
So older coaches with the early EGR systems are now simple devices compared to the newer systems, and the original non-EGT Series 60 engines are simpler yet, and represent the most economical engines to run of any Detroit diesel engines before or since. So while older coaches may not have a lot of today’s neat features, what they do have are some really good engines.
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It has been an interesting 4 months since we purchased our 15 year old Marathon H-3. One of the things I did not expect when we acquired our coach was the reluctance by Prevost and Marathon to provide service records for our coach. We purchased our coach through a broker and there was very little in the way of service history (almost none).
I am an aircraft owner and commercial pilot. In aviation, maintenance records are very important. I suppose that is why I keep maintenance records on all our vehicles. However in the case of the coach, prior owner privacy is the reason given by Prevost and Marathon for not providing service records. I am still very surprised. Prior owner information can be covered at the top of the service records – prices paid for service too for that matter. We are just interested to see what may have been replaced so we can figure out what might have to be done in the future, or perhaps there is something on our coach that has been serviced several times and is a weak item we need to pay extra attention to. Or maybe something was changed not long before we purchased the coach and we don’t need to budget for that item for awhile.
I have a 1960 Beechcraft Bonanza. I have the original maintenance log and actual receipts back to the 70s. It is very informative and helpful. I can see what parts needed replacing in the past at what intervals so I can plan for future service.
The service manager at Prevost cited the difficulty in retrieving service records in their systems. The service manager at Marathon explained they do not as a policy provide service records from prior owners but has offered to read me my service history over the phone. As we are the 4th owners of the coach, I realize that independent shops likely worked on the coach or perhaps there was some owner maintenance that would not be documented. But it is possible that major repairs, component replacement, etc would be performed by Prevost or the converter (Marathon).
While not denying my request, it has not been fullfilled by either organization. This is the busy time of year for these organizations and my request is not pressing. I’ll try again in a month. I’ll let you all know what happens. And I hope I will still be able to get a service appointment after this post…..
What we learned: If you are a prospective purchaser, and maintenance history is important to you, try to get the maintenance history from the prior owner rather than the converter or Prevost.
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Tad,
I guess it may be just the camera angle,but when I first saw your avatar, I thought I was looking at a straight 35 or at the latest an A or B model since the tails looked like the old original angle. It seems that both my E and my J had tail angles a little steeper. If you do not have the book by Larry Ball entitled “Those Incomparable Bonanzas”, you need to buy one. Signed copy available on Amazon. Great reference material and answers a multitude of questions. Stay safe.
Fellow wiggle tail driver.
Fred
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There is a privacy issue relating to the release of service history. Unlike a plane the documentation includes the owner’s name.
If each coach had logs like we have in planes that are records of hours and work performed having the logs track the coach would not be an issue. Since some Prevost coach owners want to protect the privacy the converter and Prevost would have to “sanitize” the records.
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T&L,
As a prospective buyer, you read my mind. I contacted Dallas Prevost regarding a possible coach I was looking at since the owner stated he had it serviced there, but he didn’t have all the records. So far, the Service Manager has not returned my call.
Privacy? I can’t understand that one. You can call Lexus, Mercedes, etc. and they will give you the full history of the vehicle. I could care less about the owner’s information, what I want is any record of items serviced/maintained to determine its history.
Good luck retrieving your records.
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The problem is the Prevost service records which are copies of invoices have the owner’s name, address, contact information, account number etc.
Someone would have to spend time blacking that information out and I just do not think Prevost and probably the converter also care to do that.
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Another point on older coaches is that they have much prettier paint jobs. Very subjective, of course, but we like light colors on coaches mostly used on the early 2000 models. The new Marathons are almost exclusively black with some other colors added. The coach we saw in Phoenix we could have bought sight unseen, with several shades of blue over the stainless. Fortunately, reason and gut feelings overcame emotions, and we took it off our list. A bit heartbroken, though, but plenty of coaches out there. Put in for the loan yesterday, got a little clean-up of the coach before we advertise it. Need to check on a few coaches up Ft Worth way, and once we get money in hand, we should be on our way.
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I received the service records from Prevost via email today – sanitized, no owner info, which is what I requested. So far so good. Now I just have to connect with Marathon.
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Good point Jon,
I was thinking they would just verbally furnish the information, but you’re right, if they actually emailed/mailed the records, all the owner’s information would need to be redacted.
Jon also provided some valuable information on a coach I was looking at, pointing out the VIN # furnishes the actual date the chassis was manufactured. I already knew the chassis & house are usually one year different, but it turned out the chassis/house were “four years” different … which is not mentioned in the advertisement.
I just definitely earned more in that one lesson than what I’ve paid out in dues!
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