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new coach and a bit puzzled with the Webasto
Hello group,
Just got a 1998 Liberty Conversion, 45 footer that used to belong to Randy Travis.
The coach had a separate driver front compartment with a fold down bunk and living quarters in the back for Mr. Travis. The front lounge had a wall towards the driver with an entertainmet center hence a mid door has been added by Liberty when they built it. Now I have 2 doors….
The guy that had it before me decided to make it suitable for his family and opend it up upfront by taking the wall out and eliminated the bed in the rear and put a jack-knife sofa. Needles to say this is no good for us.
In the process of modification he took out the hydronic heater upfront, the 2 120v electric heaters because he lived in the south and thought they are not needed…….oh well
Then in the bedroom he took the bed frame out, the webasto heater, the 110v bed heater and finished the floor with tile before he bolted down to the floor the couch.
I found the antifreeze terminations under the couch when the webasto heater was taken out and each line is plugged up. I can not find yet the pipes from the heater in the lounge upfront but I have to start ripping up the new walls he built to find them.
When I looked at the coach a couple of weeks ago I saw that the Webasto 2020 unit had the diesel lines disconnected so I assumed somebody did that for a reason and I planned to get it running again ASAP. That day came today. I put a new fuel pump in it, nozzle, photo eye, electrodes, cleaned the chamber and got a new controller.
All the piping is as LIberty made it, all the valves are open for heated fluid going to heaters and the return valve is open as well.
So…..I put it all together, made sure it has good , clean diesel coming to it, flipped the switch and it took off like a champ. Went into the coach, turned the thermostats on to call for heat and turn the pump on and it looked good.
Ran for a while,like 2 minutes, the reservoir and pipes around the Webasto got hot with coolant then I started hearing some banging that seemed to come from the pipes….could not tell for sure where from exactly…almost like electrovalves opening and closing…..then the bruner stopped, finished the purge and shut off.
Questions……Is it possible that the plugged lines in the bedrom and for sure somwhere upfront are causing the unit to stop because it reaches temperature and the circuit is cut off in the bedroom? Should the lines be connected to each other (until I get a new heater core there) ?
How does this system work ? All lines have to be connected ?
I noticed that there are 2 pumps in the system. One smaller inline pump on the Hot output line coming off the Webasto reservoir, and downstream from a larger rotary pump turned by an electric motor. The small pump seems to run (feel vibration) but the large pump is not running…can not find a switch to turn that pump on…..is that pump run by the thermostats in the coach or another switch that I have not found yet ? I do not see anywhere an Engine preheat electric circuit that runs off the Webasto…..the pipes are there and a line goes to the engine.Could that pump being off be the problem why the burner shuts off ?
Or maybe a combination of things ?
Any help appreciated. Thank you
Marius
Granger IN
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11 Replies
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Welcome to PC Marius.
Don’t know what part of the country you are in, but with all you have going on, your best bet would be a trip to Jeff Rowes at East Tennessee Luxury Coach for some help. I appears the bus has been modified quite a bit, so I would be reluctant to offer any suggestions.
Maybe Rudy will have a comment or two, he’s our Webasto/Aqua-Hot expert.
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Since that coach is a unique build I would not want to have you believe anything I am offering as fact, but only as opinion.
If the Webasto is in the LH rear behind the tag it is in the normal place for that vintage Liberty. In that compartment on production coaches there was the circulating pump plus a number of valves that allowed you to use the Webasto for heating the engine only, house only, or both. I believe there was also an in-line large capacity solenoid valve.
From that location the Webasto plumbing went to the engine, the hot water tank, and to various heat exchangers within the coach. When the Webasto was asked for heat using the switches in the house the pump came on and ran contiuously. That necessitates that at least a portion of the system is an open loop. At the very least you should have the engine loop open so the pump isn’t working against excessive back pressure. Additionally the circulation is required to prevent damage to the Webasto heating section which is a double walled cavity through which coolant circulates around the flame of the burner.
Your challenge in the house is to insure you have located all the heat exchangers, or at least their supply and return lines. If there is no heat exchanger, but only plugged tubes or hoses, join them together until you acquire the heat exchangers with fans.
If you do that, and all the valves are open you should get heat at the engine and running through the house system. I would think that would be your first step. I can tell you the heat exchangers could be anywhere literally. Beneath cabinets, behind the center section of the dash, under night stands etc.
Bottom line, you have to first insure you have coolant circulating loops and they are open, then you can trouble shoot the Webasto as needed. If it has been unused I would suggest it be serviced or repaired by someone such as Rudy, Jeff Rowe, or you learn how to do it yourself and acquire the inner workings needed to make it work.
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BTW, I just noticed that is an OTR coach, so within the same compartment behind the LH tag is likely to be the gate valves for the OTR coolant from the engine to use for OTR heating. That needs to be open also.
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My expertise lies in the Webesto Burner. I can normally diagnose its ills and fix them.
But once you get away from the burner and heat exchanger or away from the Aqua Hot Heater, the thinking of coach converters kicks in. They loacate valves, switches, fan coils and thermostats as they think best. A few bury the heaters too making maintenance more challanging.
Sorry, I have no idea of the valving discussed here but the burner seems to run correctly.
All the best sorting this out.
Rudy
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Thank you. In line with my thinking and I have already begun to connect the line in the locations where the lines have been terminated and the heat exchanger removed.
The circulating pump is not running and the line solenoid does not open. I am getting voltage from the controller into the relay that should open the pump/valve circuit but nothing further. I suspect the 12V line coming into the relay from somewhere in the engine compartment or bedroom (electrical panel) has no power. I have to sort that out and find out what gives power to that circuit……When the bed was removed, all the wires, Bose sub, video cables, audio and a bunch other were just coiled and hid to the side of the box. I have to dig int that.
Up front I am facing a challenge. I have 2 thermostats. One says Driver Webasto and another one Lounge Webasto. I found a pair of Webasto heater lines from a heat exchanger that was removed from the base of the wall between the driver and living quarters and now sit capped close to the floor in the cabinet behind the driver ….that is it. According to previsous owner there are no ore lines….but then why 2 thermostats ? Is it common for the driver Webasto heat exchanger to be actually somewhere under the dash close to the heat outputs from the OTR system ? If that is the case I don’t have to rip apart any more cabinets and walls to look for lines….
I am chasing leaks. The front of the coach goes down overninght. Once pumped up and shut everything off I can hear a leak in the front compartment under the driver. I sprayed everythwere I can reach with the soapy water and so far I can’t find it…looks to be deeper in the belly.
Question for the experts….the air system bleeds and there is no air in the belt tensioners for the engine. Is it safe to start the engine with no air in the system and let the belts make noises until the bags inflate ? It takes up to a minute of idle before the air reaches the tensioner bags and then all is quiet and well.
If I turn the generator on and the auxiliary air compressor on, the compressor will run for a long time and not stop. Sometime in the recent past, the original Gast comprssor apparently croacked and the owner installed a pancake compressor there tied above the house baterries. It does not have a lot of power but does make air for the doors inside. It will not make enough air to raise the coach or get air to the engine tensioners even if it runs for a half an hour. Since it is noisy along with the generator, I can not hear any leaks to figure out where the iar id going.
The coach got new engine Bendix compressor last year, new airbags front and rear this spring.
With the coach down in the front, I start the engine, let air build up and put the leveling system in Road, the front does not raise. If I put it in Auto, it comes up. In manual I can lift the whole cach….In Road mode it just sits there. It is cold here, 15F and air systems don’t like it cold but this is not normal, right ?
Many thanks again. I am learning and reading a lot. Love this coach and the fact that the “Cowboy Woody” is Randy Travis’s old tour bus makes it even more exciting for us. If anybody has advice and would rather call me to chat I would be grateful.
Marius
South Bend IN
574 323 8787
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Marius, your list of issues goes far beyond the usual type of issues we can generally resolve on a thread. What we (you and all of us that want to help) are up against is when some shade tree owner or mechanic chooses to get creative nobody has a clue where to begin.
Your bus from the start was a custom conversion in every respect. So any of our Liberty knowledge is of no value.So for the conversion side I believe you have to start from the beginning and start following wires and coolant lines, There will be no shortcuts, You may have to run new lines if you cannot find the beginning and end of everything from wires to coolant lines.
With respect to the suspension my first question is the level low system pure Prevost or does it have the Liberty modifications meaning the automatic leveling feature. That will be far easier to diagnose once we know what we are coping with. What we do not know is if the shade tree mechanic that screwed up the rest of the coach decided to install the Home Depot pancake compressor in an other than accptable fashion and not as Liberty does, using the Prevost attach point to get full use of the proteciton valve.
You are in serious trouble, and you might not yet know how deep your trouble is. I am not being critical but trying to make you aware things like the pneumatic system problems are likely far more important for your safety than the issues you are having with the Webasto. Adding a compressor is OK, but how and where it was added my be the origin of system leaks.
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As Jon said this is one coach that is truly custom…I remember working on it when randy owned it. With the bulkhead in it it required having the additional thermostat for webasto heat in the drivers area. All the loops must be connected to get flow through the system in order for it to function. If the circulation pump is not running does it have power to it? Power comes from the power distribution area in the bay and is fused there. Those circulation pumps are not cheap, I have one that is used and the pump section has been rebuilt
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Thank you.
Got the pump running, combination of fuse not make good contact and a bit of oxidation on brushes…once I mooved it a bit when the burner took of both the valve and the pump started running…..hope it lasts. I connected the loop in the bedroom under the bed and still can not find the terminations upfront in the lounge. I have to open the passenger side wall that was built like a tank when they opened it up. It must be on that wall at the base somewhere.
The driver Webasto heater is under the dash, hot collant now comes to it but the fan won’t turn on when the thermostat calls for heat. Got to track the wires and see why there is no voltage.
The coolant heater in the kitchen baseboard and bathroom both run fine and put out a lot of heat. I am 80% there with the Webasto now.
Talked to Peter yesterday and I wish I knew about the air leaks when I was in Greenville SC a week ago…your shop, Jeff, was very close. Now I am 10 hrs away……
I can hear a hisss comning from the inside area, beyond my reach through the door. Center of the firewall, mid ship, Can’t find leaks on any of the 5 port and 3 port Norgrens upfront in the driver compartment. A couple very small at push tube connections that I will convert to compression but nothing very large where I can see…The coach still will lose 20 psi of pressure on both dash gauges as it sits and the front end will drop in a few hours. All the airbags are brand new.
If the auxiliary compressor would not kick in quite often, I would have no pressure for air doors or generator air bags. BTW, what system feeds the airbags on the engine compartments tensioners ?
Generator Watchdog question……Mine does not seem to light up or work. On top of that, the toggle switch on the panel in the second compartment that Starts/Stops the genny has been modified….now I have one way toggle switch along with a button to stop it. Does anybody have a diagram with labeled wires or maybe a picture of the control panel inside with description so that I can put it back together ? Both remote locations buttons – bedroom and driver- will not start the generator. If I push the Auto Start and Start buttons together I can shut off the genny from inside but can not restart. I am thinking that it must have something to do with the button/switch modification in the start panel outside. I should put that together the right way first and then chase the remote start.
The green LED on the Watchdog module won’t light up when I flip the switch for Auto Start. Opened the face and I see 3 red micro LEDs lit up on the circuit board. Wonder if that is a sign that it is toast…..If it is, and the repair is expensive, I want to look into retrofitting a EC-30W Ennergy Command Wireless unit made for Onan diesel generators. The start/stop principle is the same and I have to think abut the wiring but it can be done. Need to bring to the command module a Shore AC 110v line to let it know not to start the Gen when on Shore power. Other than that its 4 wires . Has temperature and voltage triggers, quiet times setup, timed run, charge sense etc. Has anybody looked into that by chance ?
Still can’t find the keypad control unit in the coach to reprogram the entry combo. Jeff, do you know where it is on Randy’s coach if you worked on it ? I looked in all the cabinets, under the dash everythwere. Nothing. No code on the under driver compartment doors….Wondering if it could be hidden in the same wall on the passenger side where I think the Webasto lines might be…..
Below- first how it looks now, and after how it was when Randy had the front closed off.
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Nice work
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I believe that coach had 5 heat exchangers inside that…dash auto heater I believe to be on circuit 10 and should have a 15 amp fuse…..
Keyless entry module should be passanger side behind grab handle area
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Jeff,
Found the module, finally behind a newly added wall in the lounge but the master code has been removed- somebody took the sticker off….I fund an identical replacement module from a 92 Lincoln for $40 on ebay that works and has the master code….oh well…
Back to the Webasto circulation pump….it seems to have a bit of a flat spot on the rotor or the brushes are worn on that 12v motor….I will take it apart to check it. Works fine for a while then it won’t take off when I turn the Webasto on after being off for a while…. if I move the shaft a bit starts spinning.
You said something about having a rebuilt circulation pump with motor ? Can you email me a price ? Thanks
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