[Andre]

I wanted to switch to Li and I contacted a company that has done many installations. They were honest in telling me the cost would be prohibitively high and the equipment required was a substantial part of the cost.

I suspect that the economics of a factory built AGM installation and a comparable Li installation are heavily biased towards AGM making Li only advantage weight savings at a very high cost.

[Fred F.]

As simple as your system might be there are issues you have to address. The most important is in my mind the fact the conventoinal batteries, by their lowerjngt voltage signal the auto-start. Li batteries do not show low voltage until they shut down so the first thing you have to deal with is how to best trigger auto-start.

[Deleted User]

Jon, you’re probably right about the additional complexities with your system. My system is pretty conventional by comparison.

Tom, if I go the LI route I’ll be sure to post.

[Archived]

Any claims regarding issues with AGM batteries are almost always related to poor maintenance, or age.

I have been doing this a while and let me assure you that I have a 5 year plan on my AGM batteries and they are not discharged below 50%. My net cost apart from replacement cost ever five years has been zero. When the 5 year old AGM batteries are pulled out I am happy to get scrap price, knowing they served me well and that they owe me nothing.

I was all over the Li concept until I really dug deep and found I don’t even know what I don’t know when it comes to making the switch, especially when the manufacturers couldn;t answer some of my hard questions. I hear all the BS about how they were converting Monaco Signature coaches and other high end coaches to Li, and then all of a sudden things went silent. I will allow others more adventurous than me to be test pilots. I can find enough things on my coach to alter, improve or repair.

[Archived]

If you do not boondock much there is little benefit. If you do, and prefer to minimize the noise for whatever reason you may choose then it starts to be appealing. That is where my perspective is – not pole to pole.

[Brett]

Thanks Tom. I have already talked to a Randy about his company and will be talking with them again before I make a purchase (if I go that route). Their system is designed from the ground up to be a highly efficient and high capacity system where they can run the entire coach, including air, off of the batteries for a few days hence the need to have a 48 vdc system. Going to a 48 vdc system is not something that is even remotely a possibility for me. I am not familiar with their 12 vdc offerings or even if they are available since most of their

RV research has been focused on the OEM luxury market and specifically with Liberty. In order for them to work in this capacity they needed to reinvent an entire system.

Personally, I think it may be overkill for most applications, including mine. Holland Motorhomes will likely do the install for them should I go that route and to date they have not done one. In talking with Holland the system might actually be a 48 vdc system that gets reduced down to 12vdc or 24vdc depending on what is needed on the coach. I’m not sure how they would achieve that an still keep a high efficiency.

The bms will shut down the LI battery before it is damaged beyond repair but I am not sure how you reconnect to it for charging once it is disconnected, it may be a manual process or maybe it auto connects when it sees a voltage of 13vdc or greater.

The new 8D sized batteries are relatively new so the longer I can wait the better.

AM Solar, out of Oregon, has been doing this for a while and they may be a good choice. Their waiting list to get in is pretty long.

These are all valid questions that will need to be addressed for sure. If there are more questions or concerns

keep them coming.

[Tim]

Jon,

I read a lot of posts You made on the subject in 2013 , Which I bumped up in another post.The Li batteries seem to have a lot of Benefits.Or claim to have a lot of benefits. There is now one that is produced that is supposed to be a Drop in RV Replacement for a 8D Which will work with inverters that are out now ??? But is pretty pricey !

Question is , Are they what they claim ? Are they worth the extra Bucks ?

go to : lithiumion-batteries.com and click on RV’s

[Brett]

Thanks Jon, I was wondering that myself. It could be that it may be that auto start is triggered when the bms shuts the batteries down before they discharge to the point of no return. If I go this route it will hopefully be when I go full time in early 2018 at which point it is less of an issue for me. At minimum I would need to buy a different remote panel and the Magnum auto start device the is connected to the generator. This is also good argument for solar if it is going to be parked sans power for a few days or to protect against the power going out.

[Dick]

This Lithium-Ion battery retrofit discussion should be of interest to almost everyone who owns an older coach and is faced with replacing coach batteries over the next few years. I suspect and expect that the technology is evolving at a pretty good clip and eventually the technology to fully support Li-Ion batteries in our coaches will be there and be cost effective as well.

The admins might want to consider combining the Li-Ion posts from this Winterizing Tips thread with another developing thread on Li-Ion batteries. I’m sure there will be lots of posts on the subject as time goes on.

[Gerald]

8DA from me is 582.62 and 8dL is 590.12, so Jon is close with his 6000 number for comparison.

[Larry]

I agree with that , Too costly for the benefit. And I have read a Lot of good stuff on the Lifelines. But I have a Question. I have an old Silverton Yacht, And they needed to replace the House Batteries. The Marina doing the work looked them up and told Me they were 6 Volt . I said there must be some mistake ? They said no. Two 6 volts wired in series are supposed to last longer. So that is what they placed. Today searching the net , I got to reading about the Lifeline batteries. Someone suggested using 2 – 6 volts instead of the large 8d’s . That would be easier to install with each 6 volt weighing about half of what the 8’s would . And wired in series they would be stronger / More Ah ? So I looked around a little at the Lifeline 6 volts. There is one that says it has 400 Ah , So What would two of them Give You ? Would the newer inverters charge and maintain these ? There has got to be a Fu Pa Somewhere in using these in a Coach ? Or seems like everyone would be doing it ? The two 6 volts would cost more than the 8D ? Humm , Might boost Sales for Tom ?

[Archived]

I was going to suggest what Dick suggested for starting a new post for LI batteries and include the related sections of this post.

Jon, for me it will probably not be justifiable by cost but might be justifiable based on the hassle associated with all the negatives of AGM in comparison. They are not as complex as they had been simply because the industry has learned from their experience. The bms is key and who ever designs it needs to have intimate knowledge of the cell’s chemistry and behavior which is why in larger systems it is the cell manufacturer that provides the bms. The bms has two major functions which is to make sure that the cells are equalized in the battery and that is typically done through resistors to discharge the higher voltage cells and to save the battery from discharging to the point of no return.

If the manufacturer that Tom was referring to was trying to design an 8D battery with no bms then

I have a hard time seeing how that would work. Each 8D battery would need its own bms and the units out now have one built in to each 8D battery. If you have (6) 8D LI batteries then you have (6) bms boards in total. This is separate from charging them and they can take a lot of current during charging without affecting their life with no absorption cycle or need to top off.

If if it’s not clear yet, the complexity and reliability of the battery hinges on how well the bms is executed. There is also the ruggedness factor which should also be considered and some of the systems (Relion) have a 5 year non-prorated warranty.

There are many many benefits on LI’s side and the negatives are being reduced or eliminated as time passes and it is accelerating.

Keep in mind that I also probably cannot cost justify my Apple iPhone 7 to you anymore than you can cost justify to me keeping your coach probably much colder than I would like. Everyone has to weigh those benefits for themselves and I appreciate all opinions related to this subject as I am not quite ready to open my wallet to LI.

[Archived]

Rocky, please explain to my slightly (well more than slightly) closed mind what you expect to accomplish and how you intend to justify the cost.

I have found claims as to reliability and life on relatively new products are little more than fertilizer until there has been sufficient real world field testing. I am a cynic.

[Dick]

There is no point of return for discharge with LI, they shut off, period. The best part is constant 12v straight line voltage until the switch turns them off.

It’s a few years, but Jon and I were invited to a LI battery company to view their new 8D LI battery. Can’t identify the company due to a Disclosure Statement, but the hurtle ahead of them was to solve the inverter charger issue, auto-start, alternator charging and the availability of both 12 & 24 volts. To date, I don’t think they were ever able to solve those problems.

About that time, Randy and crew at Panterra formed Volta Power and developed an LI system for the buses that included all the components necessary for an OEM system or a replacement for our current AGM system. Click on the logo below and you’ll see there is more to it than just trying to swap out AGM’s for a drop in LI.

[DON]

I went to the starlight site and my 8Ds are about 250 AH. They likely cost $600. Tom has to jump in here.

The 200 AH from the Starlight sight wants ov er $2000. They list a 12 to 15 year life. They claim these things are capable of tolerating some things a AGM doesn’t handle well. But right now there is no feedback based on actual field use. My AGMs are trouble free and assuming $600 each I will have 3 changes in 15 years for an $1800 dollar total cost while the same of the Li is $2000.

We know they provide constant voltage, but we have learned to live with the declining voltage of an AGM, and they are silent on the problem associated with triggering an auto-start. I suspect at this time unless you are keeping your coach for a minimum of 15 years you will have a hard time justifying the $8000 upfront cost my coach would require when a portion of that every five years is not only more cost effective, your coaches next owner is unlikely to be returing your investment.