[Corey]

The number six cylinder can go out , but don’t be scared buy one, there are lots of them out there with no trouble , so it’s luck of the draw Gary

[Archived]

Personally, I want only a 12.7 non-egr Series 60. Evidently the “ugly fix” does work. Jon will probably jump in here. Geo.

[Archived]

There is no need to fear a 14L Series 60, with or without a functioning EGR. If I were to buy a coach of the vintage you describe my primary concerns would be to have Detroit/Allison dealers run the codes and look at the engine transmission history, I would be looking at age dates on tires and batteries and at 10 years of age I would be considering the condition and potential replacement of items whose rubber components age and give problems such as brake chambers, air bags, Norgren valves, etc.

Anecdotal evidence suggests EGR equipped engines in the Series 60 suffer from early wear usually in the #6 cylinder and that the EGR costs a bit of fuel mileage, but those are things that can be addresses at a later date because in order of importance those are not high on the list.

[Larry & Diane]

We own an 05 Marathon with the 14L.EGR. Installed the ugly fix last summer. Agree with Jon, EGR issues were low on my list. New Tires last year, new air bags and batteries this year. The EGR engine was not a show stopper for us in any way.

[Gary]

I had a 2008 XLII (2006 chassis) and currently have a 2011 H3 (2010 chassis) both have 14L Series 60 motors. I had issues on the first one dealing with loose injector hold downs and a couple of failed turbo control modules. The second one has been mainly trouble free.

I would not hesitate to buy one, and I second having a Detroit shop run the codes on both the engine and transmission. I would also check into getting the overhead (valves and injectors) adjusted if it has 60,000 miles or more and it has not yet been done. On both my engines, they were way out of spec. Some people will tell you it is not necessary, but Detroit has stated it should be done at 60,000 miles and I agree. Mine both ran smoother and better after getting it done.

The fuel mileage is not as good as pre egr engines, and my 2011 is even worse as it has more emissions crap on it. I do not get over 5.5 hardly ever, but I don’t drive for economy as I am usually on a very tight schedule. I also always pull a Jeep Wrangler.

You will find that the oil gets dirty much quicker with egr enabled. If you are worried about wear, I would simply change the oil earlier than it specifies in the maintenance schedule. I do mine at 5000 miles FWIW. I believe in the old adage that oil is cheaper than engines.

[Archived]

thanks everybody, your knowledge is always appreciated, think if we can put the deal together going for it

gdub

[Dick]

I have a pre EGR and my oil gets dirty quick too. I’ve never had a series 60 that didn’t.

[Archived]

My 14L oil has about 3000 miles on it since an oil change and it is still honey colored. My EGR is disabled and I plugged the line from the EGR intercooler to the intake manifold. I have never owned a coach that keeps its oil as clean for so long.

Trivia………..I change oil like Mark every 5000 miles. More Trivia………With the deletion of the EGR my mileage went up instantly about .3 MPG, and then after about 10,000 miles started slowly creeping up until it stabilized at a total gain of about .6 MPG over the initial 5.9 MPG.

I don’t have any way to prove this, but it seems like the sooting and particulate that was recirculated with a functioning EGR was being cleaned up as a result of blocking all exhaust gasses from entering the engine.

[Archived]

Wierd, my oil is black almost immediately after a change. My take is you don’t get all the old nasty black oil out of the system when changing and the new mixes with the old on startup.

[tom]

I am sure the drain time does influence how much old oil remains before refilling with new. Ihave had the opportunity to see my oil pan after a drain and there is little or no sludge or black crud laying in the bottom. That was on my 8V92 when it had about 200,000 miles on the engine, and I had put about 160,000 of them with 5000 mile oil changes.

My oil change process has always been the same and likely may get some criticism, but it has always worked for me. I change my oil between trips at around 5000 mile intervals and do not run the engine prior to draining it. It may sit for a day or a month, and when I get under the coach to service it, I remove the plug and let it drain. Sometimes I grease the entire coach while it is draining, sometimes I then put the plug in and refill it, but sometimes the plug is out overnight at which point I put it back in and refill. So it drains anywhere from 2 hours to overnight, and whatever was up in the engine prior to my draining of oil had a long time to end up in the oil pan.

I know the theory is to run an engine prior to an oil change, but the dirt and crud that accumulates is apparently held in suspension in the oil pretty well. I think the 5000 mile changes are keeping the engine pretty clean and may be overkill but that is OK.

[TJ]

So Jon, do you put a reminder on your smartphone that the oil plug is out from the day before? I just have vision of you walking out to the barn one morning and fire up the old girl and forgetting you drained all her oil out the night before!

Just sayin..

Also, do you think by just using the UGLY FIX will give close to the same results as you without plugging the EGR?

[Archived]

Listen smart ass, the only time I accept comments about smart phones is 4:00 AM eastern time to 4:01 AM eastern time and that is on my cell phone voice mail.

OK, serious for a change: There are two ways to stop the EGR from functioning. One is if the coach DDEC is programmed to disable the EGR when the coach is over 11,000 feet in altitude. That is how the Ugly Fix functions because it fools the coach altitude sensor. The second is to reprogram the EGR start RPM and the shut off RPM to an RPM range not capable. Mine allows the EGR to begin to function at 3200 RPM, and to stop functioning at 3400 RPM. Obviously both values are unrealistic so mine is disabled until it hits 3200 which is not likely.

But regardless of how the EGR is prevented from operating the valve still allows some leakage of exhaust gas to enter the intake manifold. It is a small percentage of total exhaust gas flow, but it is still something that should not enter the engine. To insure all exhaust gases are blocked I installed a steel plug in the line between the EGR and manifold and I believe that is part of why my oil stays clean.

To appreciate what an EGR system does to the engine, here is what happens when the EGR system is functioning. Its purpose is to reduce internal cylinder temperatures to lower nitrogen oxides. It does that by returning the exhaust gases to the cylinders. The exhaust coming from the engine is passed through the EGR valve and an intercooler which drops its temperatures. It then is introduced to the intake manifold where it is breathed into the engine. It displaces oxygen so the combustion heat is lower and NOX is lower also. But doing that robs the engine of power because the fuel has less O2. So not apparent to us as drivers the system compensates by shifting the turbo into a higher boost (which can reach 50 PSI but is not shown on the gauge) while introducing more fuel to compensate for the power loss.

We all know exhaust gas is exhaust (duh!) and it contains all the soot and particulate matter we see puffing out of the exhaust stacks of diesel vehicles. That dirty matter is passing throught the engine, and the abrasiveness of the soot and particulate is what is suggested as causing problems with the #6 cylinder prematurely. I believe keeping that dirty stuff in the exhaust stream and out of the engines is beneficial and certainly has cleaned up my oil.