[Tom]

[David]

[Archived]

This is our first coach and I think you have a good point. I have pocket doors (3) in the bus and they are manually operated. I have ocassionally thought it would be nice to have them operated by air or electric, but also wondered about reliability, and of course, air leaks if done that way. I have Crestron controls, but almost everything except the TV stuff I can run manually too. I have electric dump valves, not air, but they can be an issue just as air can. I like my auto water fill, but have had it malfunction and run water all over the ground when it refused to shut off once or twice. Even so, I wouldn’t want to lose that function.

I only use aux air for the step cover, air horn, and generator air bags in the conversion. Nothing else conversion wise is air operated. (The drivers seat was put in by Prevost and is air operated too FWIW)

I think overall that I like the goodies, but I bet there are others who would be happy with less…

[DON]

I am a staunch believer in the KISS theory. I have seen at least one conversion driving down the road spewing blue puree, and have read about several more (they had the macerator :)). My opinion is that the more complex the coach and it’s systems, the more challenging it is to operate those same systems correctly and certainly more costly it is to repair. My personal favorite is the Creston works fine in a house, not so well in a coach; when it breaks it is a depot level change….send me another! Lot’s of things work fine in homes but when placed in something that moves…….well,..I give you the plasma television. While we think these coaches move around very little, in the grand scheme of things items that reside on board do believe they live in an active earthquake fault zone. To that many of us add our own personal touches, like that Stiffle Lamp that can and will, if not properly secured, travel towards the driver or the passenger at the speed of heat during a panic stop! Power assisted pocket doors, come on now, if you cannot open a pocket door then you really do not belong in a coach. Another often overlooked item is that these coaches come out of the converter way heavy. Add to that your special freezer in the belly where you carry your prized venison steaks from a hunt in Wyoming 5 years ago, and your ladders, your tools replete with that SnapOn tool chest of course, your lawn chairs, your firewood…………the list goes on. So, at the end of the day, buy what you want, load it the way you want, my personal choice is that “less is more”, as another correspondent so well stated!

[Liam]

I am generally in agreement with the simplicity concept. As a retired person, one of my hobbies is projects on my bus. It happens to be an 06 pre-multiplex H3-45. While not real old, it still presents many areas for upgrades that I can tackle myself. It has a very adequate system of remote control that is not Crestron. Given that, I can do a lot of plug and play on the electronics without the complicated reprogramming of computer software. It is designed with many more intuitive systems that the average mechanically interested owner can understand with usually minimal help from the converter.

[gary]

I should add one comment since Les mentioned multiplex.

Like most I was scared to death of multiplex. I had visions of sophisticated computer expertise to diagnose and repair problems.

Not so.

A multiplex system is actually pretty simple because all the switching, circuit protection and communications is done within the modules throughout the coach. They can and will display faults in the information center to enable you to more easily isolate a problem. You have to refer to the electric diagrams which are available on line, but once you systematically analyze a problem it will be proven to be a reasonably simple process. This is where technology and the complexity within the modules actually makes the coach simpler. The modules are not owner serviced, but if a fault lies within the module, unplug it and replace it with one not going to be used for the trip. The system handles all the reprogramming as modules are shifted around.

The beauty of this system is it not only will display the fault to lead to where the problem lies, but it can make a pre-trip inspection very easy. If you want to do a light check, tell it and then step outside and walk around the coach watching the system light the various lights in sequence. You no longer need your wife to step on the brake or turn on the turn signals or flash the high beams for you. The system does that. If it is going to be a day when you really need that OTR, ask the system to do a check. Then step out of the coach and walk around watching and listening as the system checks relays, solenoid valves, fans, the compressor clutch, etc. As complex as the modules are they have eliminated a lot of relays, circuit breakers and wire making the part of the coach that needs repairs most often far simpler than ever.

The point being that not all of the features we have and which are provided by some complex technology are crossing the line. So far there are some things that make no sense to me, but others are highly beneficial.

[Archived]

Just like the auto industry, technology
keeps taking the bus to a new high tech level. I’m with John, KISS is
also my preference, but as the model years change, the latest and
greatest systems will make bus ownership much less demanding by using
these state of the art devices.

Here I am getting ready to enter the XL2 world and dealing with my
own simple complexities. An air bed lift, what’s wrong with lifting
the bed by hand without needing air. Electric shades, good grief, now
I have about 12 motors to worry about. Electric driver sun visor,
two more motors. Air awning, I know this is going to be a nightmare,
I have helped those unfortunate souls in the past trying to get the
awning to close so they could go home.

Am I glad I have all this stuff, absolutely, I think I can get
used to pushing buttons and my better half will now be able to able
to use the awning without harassing me about the ladder and hookie
thing.

Next thing you know, Jon will have an Ipad…..

[Archived]

I need some edjamacation on the multiplex system on conversions. Starting with airplanes (airliners) that were built in the 90’s the builder (in this case I am citing McDonnell-Douglas) would use a electrical wire that was say 208V AC to say power the forward galley and also run a signal down the same wire that would operate say the movie screens mounted in the overhead throughout the cabin. To that same wire they may have also added the call system where that button overhead that call’s the cabin attendant is also runnning through that same wire. Simply stated they used one wire (I am over simplifying a bit) to operate numerous sub systems as well as for it’s original intent. They also used fibre optical cable’s that would carry even more variants at one time, all of this was for weight savings and reducing the complexity of massive cable bundles running everywhere……is that the essence of the multiplex system on conversions?

To this I might add that I have an MB S600 that I will not touch, not even to change the oil, way too advanced for me. A twin of my car was parked in the MB shop with 5 or so mechanics hovering around it. Seems the owner had an amplifier installed by a stereo shop and they found a wire that was hot, thru an inline fuse on it and powered the amp. The wire they cut and tapped into was fibre optic; all manner of hell broke loose. One headlight was always on, the right outside mirror constantly moved, the air suspension was flat in one corner and so on…yup that one wired controlled a bunch of things and when the stereo shop layed it open with a pair of side cutters….just like opening up your notebook with a model 77 Skill Saw.

[Archived]

In the multiplex system there is a standard protocol for communications. Those communications take place over a pair of wires. The communications wires are dedicated to communications and the system is smart enough to know which messages get priority and which are less important. I doubt if the plane example John cites used the same wires for electric power and communications or messages.

The pair of wires solely used throughout the coach for communications between modules doesn’t carry current to light lights, switch relays, or power any devices.

The messages back and forth are such that the data sent and received happens so fast we are not even aware there may have been a line of messages between modules that had to give priority to a message to the dash that there is a low oil pressure situation or a high electrical load above limits on a critical circuit.

Tom has addressed exactly the specifics of how much is too much. The awnings are a great example. There is no way Di can or will extend the manual awnings we had on our 97. But she can push a button and extend or retract the awnings we now have. Will they break? Yes. Does that offset the benefit?

The flip side is our shades. Yes she put the manual shades up and down on our 97 coach. But she can also push a button to put our shades up and down on the current coach. Will they break? Yes. But will the repairs offset the convenience of pushing a single button to make them all go up or down?

Those two examples Tom gave can only be answered by owners that have had both and have had to experience all that is good and bad about them. Right now I want the powered shades. When one breaks I will revisit this topic and may have a different opinion.

[Archived]

Power Shades I thought that meet that they lit up.

[Archived]

Jon,

I think were into semantics. Correct me if I am wrong but the multiplex system in your coach is some kind of hardware/software program that essentially runs a self test on a specific system, lights as an example; it may also be able to report faults like “left rear brake light inop”, may even be able to turn things ala Creston on and off..it still has some form of umbilical, maybe even bell wires to make it happen and probably has a master unit and slaves wired to each component being either tested or monitored/operated, although it could use rf, however that would probably cause flawed results with all of the stray electrons flying about in a coach. The aircraft example, yeah they do, uses a wire or cable, operating at a specific frequency, and sends multiple signals up/down that same line operating at a different frequencies, all at the same time, my dusty old manual shows that as MUX protocol. Obviously DC can never be a player here but all forms of AC can. 28VAC, 115VAC, 208VAC, single to three phase…ever notice the 28VAC hummm when an airliner is transmitting? Power may well be flowing one way while a communication signal is running the other direction….no, I have no idea how that is all accomplished. Apparently both of these are called multi-plex systems, but then again so is a movie theatre with multiple screens, or is that the metro-plex, no that’s Dallas………….

I think we should stop for a moment and ponder the term complexity. Tom mentions electric shades which are essentially adjustable window coverings that operate on a design that is older than any one of us here’s grand parents. To that we replace the pull or rope with a small dc electric motor. That, of course is going to take a gear or two then to that mix we add some wire, a switch or three, some dc power, a fuse and who know’s what else. The end result, you have a shade that goes up and down just like it did before and at the same time this labor saving device has taken something simple and made it complex.

The technology is out there right now for windows that, with a flip of a switch will darken completely, fog completely, even present a nice beach or mountain scene through your outside windows….all with a flip of a switch. How many moving parts, one, the switch, a rheostat! Good by shades……. You can now clean the inside of the windows, if you desire, without performing major surgery, No more gears, ropes, dust, fabric fade…all that stuff, gone.

Concluding this little diatribe let me say that the word complex, well it paints with a broad brush. To often things that are deemed labor saving, automated, all new, prove to be nothing more than adding new parts to old designs, taking something, anything and making it more complex….like putting a bidet in an out house when you really need indoor plumbing!

[Archived]

I think in the context of how most define the word complexity, we all probably agree. To me, and likely all of us complexity as applied to our coaches is multiple devices or systems that require special skills, knowledge or tools to service and maintain.

Our first coach was nicely equipped, and it was not difficult to service or maintain. That was especially true if you had some screwdrivers and wrenches plus access to a WW Grainger catalog. A multi-tester was all that was needed to troubleshoot the entire electrical system.

Our existing coach is complex in that it has systems or devices whose replacements or replacement parts are not in the WW Grainger catalog, and which require a considerable depth of knowledge to trouble shoot and repair. Even if I ignore the Crestron portion of it, and all that controls (which far exceeds my knowledge and understanding) it appears everything from the coffee maker to the water pump to the shades to the awnings all have printed circuit boards and a gazillion moving parts, any of which can fail. That of course ignores then entire Prevost chassis which also has sophisticated controls and devices managing its systems such as the slides, engine and transmission. It not only has power windows, it has an idiot light to tell me they are open.

So to me, complex means I cannot trouble shoot anything down to the point of identifying the failed diode because almost everything is more complicated than anything I had in our original coach.

[Archived]

OK, I have attached a picture perfect example of “Power Shades.”

Multiplexing has also been in use for signal system communications since the mid 1970’s. Its not a new technology, only new application in the bus world. In 1982 I was transferred to New York City to expand the signal system covering The Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens Boroughs. In their system it took one pair of dedicated telephone wires to control one intersection. Where there were system count detectors at an intersection it took a second pair of dedicated telephone wires to collect the count data. This system was initially installed on Northern Blvd in Queens in the mid 1960’s. There were a total of nine telephone termination racks with over 600 individual pairs of telephone wires. At that time a multiplexed system could process control data to and data back from seven intersections. That would have been a tremendous improvement to the old hard wired system and would have recovered the cost of istallation in a short period of time. Oh yeah, their old system would only control electromechanical signal equipment which was already old technology since solid state control equipment had been available for several years. Marbleite, the original manufacturer of NYC’s electromechanical signal controllers had been out of the business also for several years. Sicklos, a local electrical manufacturing shop had taken over manufacture of replacement parts and “new” controllers to support this old system.

I spoke with Mr. Vinson Hodnott, the NYC Traffic Engineering Administrator. His response was, “Will, I installed the first artery with this system. It was so painful that a new system will only be installed over my dead body.” I also spoke with him about the 150 watt light bulbs being used 24/7 – 365 inside the cabinets. The purpose of these bulbs was to keep the lubricating grease on the mechanical parts from solidifying during winter weather. Now folks we are talking about Con Edison electric rates here, the highest rates in the nation at that time. I told Vinson there was a special function bit that could be used to turn the bulbs on in say October and off again in say April. That would be a 50% reduction of their power bill for the 3,500 intersections on the system. Again, the answer I got was, “What light bulbs?”

Just a couple of examples why it is so expensive to live in New York City and we have not even touched on taxes or surface lot parking rates.

Power Shades!

Sorry about the orientation of the picture. In Picasa it is correct. In the import not so. I guess this will just have to be some “neck exercise” this morning for all of you that read this. Sully is our grandson and he is riding on the Durango and Silverton train. The train is stopped to take on water. That is the only time heads or hands are allowed outside the coach. At other times there are tree limbs and rock walls too close for clearance.

[Archived]

On my ’92 CC the complexity that scares me the most are the electric operated water valves. Things like the bottom drain valves are critical but get used once a year – which is a recipie for getting stuck. They are also burried in places that are completely inaccessible without major tear-down. Give me a manual ball valve any day!!!

[gary]

Jon and I have had this talk in person. I _LIKE_ the technology! All of it! Give me more!!!

Yes, things will break. Then either I or Liberty (Prevost, Zip-Dee, etc) will fix them, but in the mean time I get to push a button and listen to all of those little motors wind up my shades. How cool is that?!