[Paul]

I hope Corey does not mind, I moved this from rallies to general discussisons.

All of us who have had coaches for any length of time, and acted like the typical owner by comparing coaches during that time know that there is no perfect coach. But we also know some are better suited to what we want and need than others.

A coach that suited our needs as recently as 10 years ago is not what we want today because we have changed and along with our change goes the need to have a coach nore suited to us today. We drive fewer miles today than when we were using our coach to do trade shows and seminars. We spent little time in the coach, but put miles on the coach. Back then if we weren’t driving the coach, it was only a place to sleep. As a result the important items for us were the ability to dry camp when necessary, and comfort while driving.

Today our coach is our second home and we get to a campground and live in it for longer periods. We like the open space we get with slides.

But the change from a 40 foot non slide to a 45 foot no slide to a 45 foot 2 slide, despite the extra length and increased floor space has actually cost us a substantial amount of storage. Slides take up room both upstairs costing about 25 to 30 inches of space along a wall (the equivalent of a large closet) and the structure for the slides costs us bay storage space. That is the compromise Corey talks about. We have to give up something to get something.

But we are not contemplating going back to a non-slide coach. We both like the extra roominess for moving around inside the coach that slides provide. To us that is more valuable than being able to carry more stuff.

Everyone can do the same evaluation of what works best for them. As wants and needs and budgets are developed it really sharpens one’s focus on the best coach for them.

But to go even further, a person has to define their character as well. Di and I don’t trade often. We hang on to our “stuff” and our coach is no different. So we not only consider how we use a coach, we consider price and because we don’t flip a coach often we expect to pay more for a coach we really find fits our needs because we are going to live with it for a long time. If we flipped a coach often, we could afford to make an error in buying a coach that wasn’t exactly what we wanted because we know we won’t have to live with it for very long. In that situation we need to by a coach as cheap as possible because we don’t want to lose as much money in a trade or resale.

As to the cost of maintenance, plan on it. The more you use the coach, the cheaper on a per mile basis the cost is, but you still have to recognize a bus is not cheap to maintain. No more expensive than a similar sized RV, but still expensive. Depreciation is by far the greatest expense, but just routine preventive maintenance can easily run into thousands of dollars per year. In fact it is hard if not impossible to even justify a Prevost conversion. But there are few among us that will even try. We own them because they are the best there is and just the enjoyment traveling in one is all it takes to make the purchase of one seem reasonable.

[Archived]

Jon/Tom, This post was meant as a reply to Dean and Heidi in the Rallies thread. Please feel free to move it, as we don’t know how. Thanks

[Dean]

Never you mind!

[Archived]

We know what you meant and why. I thought it might end up morphing into a thread unrelated to rallies so I moved it before it expanded.

Looking forward to seeing you guys again.

[Fred]

Since we are talking about slides, what is the real difference between Prevost slides and HWH slides?

I think some converters don’t realize how important their websites are to a potential buyer. The website are our first stop when looking for information. Amadas/Vantare and Liberty don’t have a link for specs…. Outlaw’s site doesn’t even pull up under the ‘Prevost dealers/conversions’, you have to type in in separately and still no spec sheet.

I want to know what type of water heating systems, generators, slide mechanisms and other options that the converters are using,

Outlaw’s bay doors seem to not be covered on the inside as you can see metal arms exposed. It makes me realize that a converter can make a BIG difference on quality.

Just from what I’ve seen (early in the game), Millennium rises to the top. But, until I speak with them on the phone (the top three), it’s hard to tell by the websites.

MM.

[Archived]

Mr. Mark,

To assess the quality of the conversions you actually need to look at them. A potential buyer can go blind looking at specs and photos, but there is no substitute for seeing the conversion in person. The different converters approach the systems differently so evaluating which systems will work best for you is up to you. I can say that nobody to my knowledge converts a coach and has system weaknesses. All of the converters use system designs that have evolved over the years and design flaws are rare. While each converter has a different approach to how to set up the electrical systems for example I am not aware of any conversion in which owners are having issues relating to design.

As an owner you have an obligation to understand your systems because over the years it seems a lot of problems relate to owners lacking a detailed understanding of their coach’s systems.

I am not aware of anyone with any slides complaining about their slides. I am also not aware of any slides not occasionally requiring a repair or adjustment. If I were to buy a new coach however I would insist on Prevost slides for two reasons. First the structure would have been engineered from the beginning for slides and the structural changes would not have been a retrofit. Secondly I know the slides will be supported for a long time at any Prevost service center.

If I was in your position looking to buy a new conversion I would be looking at each conversion in detail during their construction and deciding based on what system design makes the most sense compared to how I use the coach, what decor or floor plans suit my needs, and who builds the quality into even the places never seen once the coach is buttoned up. The devil is in the details.

The amount of weight I would put on a converter’s web site is zero. They don’t build web sites. They convert coaches and I would want to evaluate the coaches. The web site is fluff.

[Archived]

I dont know if they manufacture the slide or just provide en=gineering guidance but Valid Manufacturing in British Columbia designed the Prevost and Newell sldes and probably others

You should have a look at their site they produce some nifty things

[Paul]

Lots of interesting thoughts here.

First, Jon said “As an owner you have an obligation to understand your systems because over the years it seems a lot of problems relate to owners lacking a detailed understanding of their coach’s systems.”

I think that the word “expense” can be substituted for “problems” in the above. After 3 years of ownership and 2 very different coaches, it’s become clear that I’ve saved myself a ton of money by being my own mechanic and handyman. Among us, Jon is perhaps one of the most all-round general experts in this arena that I’ve ever met. There seems to be no problem that he doesn’t feel confident in tackling, and with that ability and willingness to turn a wrench or a screwdriver comes a considerable reduction in expense. I share some of his traits and hope to cultivate more of them as time goes by. Indeed, when I consider what would happen if I needed to call a mechanic for every issue that came up, I would likely drop out of coach ownership altogether. This is because that at any given moment during a coach’s life, some part or system is always in need of repair or adjustment. With this many components and interactions, its unavoidable.

And then there there are those who aren’t concerned with the expense and/or don’t necessarily have the knowledge and/or the desire to perform their own general maintenance. These are the ones that buy brand new coaches, and the ones that we handymen buy our coaches from. God bless them for taking the heaviest share of depriciation off of our backs, for as we pick up where they left off, the maintenance curve has hopefully just begun to stabilize.

In the end, driving down the highway in high gear, watching the scenery drift by, is the pleasure that we all share, regardless of the circumstances of ownership.

[Archived]

While I appreciate Fred’s kind remarks I need to say a couple of things to set the record straight.

Almost all of what I post comes from experience. If it broke, or needed maintenance or replacement, and I did it myself I feel capable of at least offering an opinion. If I did not have any hands on experience, but know the answer because it is in a shop manual, or a user’s manual I will often respond to a post or questions, but will also try to provide a link to my source of information. If I am guessing I try to make it very clear my post or answer is nothing more than a guess.

The reason I do my own work to a great extent is because when we started out in married life 52 years ago we were broke and after paying a plumber $9 to fix a plugged drain (and he failed) I found the problem was a plugged roof vent. From that point on I realized I might be able to solve our own problems. My net pay that week for 40 hours was $42.96 and that $9 really hurt to pay. I suspect a lot of others on PC can share similar stories.

Now when I do work it is a hobby. I am still learning and with each project such as the CAC replacement I continue to learn. I still do all the work on my cars, house, dump truck, and equipment. Cheaper than a mistress.

[Kenneth]

Jon, I certainly understand that the converters are not in the web design business. When starting a search, it gives you an idea about the company when reading information and going through their website.

Marathon stated on another thread that they will have a new website at the first of the year. Millennium’s website is pretty good. Newmar (plastic coach) has an excellent website. You would think a manufacturer making $2M plus coaches would spend a little time building a nice website.

These converters are ALL over the country. Doing a little online research will save a time and a lot of airline tickets. I understand that going to the physical manufacturing plant will speak volumes on how the coach is built, etc., but a person has to start somewhere and a good detailed website is a good start.

I wont’ be doing any maintenance myself (engine/chassis/generator). I can adjust house items as needed as I do on my current coach. Most of the issues/adjustments seem to be vibration related.

And Jon, I really appreciate your knowledge and opinion on these coaches.

MM.

[Archived]

Even if you never intend to pick up a wrench yourself, in my opinion it is still of significant importance to be as knowledgable as possible when it comes to making repairs.

If you can correctly diagnose the problem initially, you will likely have a better result during the first attempt at repair by someone else, in addition to saving considerable dollars otherwise spent on a technician trying to figure it out himself.

It also seemed beneficial to me to be able to describe the problem in technical terminology that the service writer or technician easily understood and there was less chance of miscommunication.

Lastly, the more educated you become, the less likely it is that a service facility will be able to take advantage of you. If you have a good understanding of the task at hand, you are in a much better position to evaluate the quality of the work performed, or omitted, as the case may be.

No one will ever care more about your bus, or the quality of service work performed, than you.

[Dave]

Web site design and maintenance doesn’t have to be expensive, so we may wonder why the plastic coach manufacturers sites are better than the converters. My speculation is that the so-so converter sites are intentional. They realize that they aren’t selling a customer specific coach and that requires direct customer interaction. Their sites only need you to understand they are in the business as a serious new coach builder is going to pay a visit to every converter before dropping a couple mil. This is no different in the custom yacht business; so-so web sites and custom build products.

[Alicia]

MM,

I agree that I, too, have been disappointed in the converter websites. I’m a website designer and owner of a site having more than a million pages. What I can offer is that great websites just don’t “happen”. They take a tremendous amount of skill to properly implement and good designers are expensive and in high demand.

What usually happens to most non-IT businesses is that someone will hire a friend-of-a-friend, a relative, or the smart kid next door to throw together a site. Some hire design consultants who will come in and for a lot of money generate a site that has some flashy graphics and a few canned “gee-whiz” features, only to disappear soon thereafter.

The problem is that a great website takes a full time effort. A great website needs one or two individuals that understand computer technology, programming, graphic arts, marketing, and human factors. Finding all of that in one person is rare, and if you do, it will cost between $50,000 to $100,000 per year. Otherwise, you can hire a couple of college kids who will have some hits-and-misses, design a few neat features, and be pretty enthusiastic for a while, but will inevitably leave before the project is done. This is typical because no IT project is ever done. Worse, the new people coming in to pick up where the last ones left off will not want to maintain what their predecessors implemented and will surely propose a redesign. They too, will leave when they’re done or your budget is exhausted. The cycle never ends.

What you see when you go to the manufacturer’s current website is usually a design that was implemented a couple of years ago by people who are now long gone. Nobody on staff knows how to extend the site or to add new features, and the limitations that it exhibits have become the signature behavior of the site. It’s business as usual with a ho-hum web experience.

From what I’ve seen, none of the current manufacturers of low volume products (i.e. our coaches), are willing to spend the kind of money it takes to create that great web experience. But can you blame them? Consider for a moment that you’re selling multimillion dollar vehicles to mature, wealthy people. Now look at the buyer demographic and ask some simple questions like:

1) Are our customers internet savvy? Is this the Facebook crowd? Chances are, they’re not. Just because you’re reading this internet posting, don’t assume that they are. Cances are you did not buy a new coach and are thus not in this demographic. Yes, even in this day, some folks don’t use computers at all. What percentage of new coach buyers are savvy internet users?

2) Does the manufacturer’s web site influence the final buying decision? Again, a well heeled customer will shop around a bit. Before plunking down that big check, they’re going to want to SEE the final product. Making the decision based solely on the website doesn’t happen. The final decision decision on a purchase of this size will always involve some personal, one-on-one interaction between buyer and seller.

3) What parts of the selling process are the most useful in getting people to part with $2 million bucks? Imagine being a new coach salesman. Which would you rather spend a $200,000 marketing budget on: a lavishly appointed showroom with fine furniture, premium beverages, fine carpets, dazzling brochures, etc., or…. a flashy website? Remember, you never get that one-on-one firm handshake on a website. Warm and fuzzies go hand in hand with big purchases and you can only do that with warm bodies.

So, it’s no surprise that their websites are unremarkable. It’s a reality of business.

[Archived]

Although knowing your coach’s systems in detail may appeal to many of us, it certainly isn’t necessary. It’s not like a plane or yacht where it can be very benificial to understand your systems, not knowing bus or converter systems only means you’re dependednt on others to keep everything going. There’s nothing at wrong with a hands-off approach. It’s your money and how you want to maintain your coach is your business; no one elses.

Some converters don’t make it easy for us to maintain our own coaches. Even those of us with certain skills are challenged. I recently had the opportunity to look behind the covers of a 2006 major converter. The first thing I realized that anyone that thinks my CC is complex has never looked at a newer major converter (and potentially any new converter’s product). There wasn’t even a fuse identification chart, but as long as the company’s expert is at the other end of the phone all is well. Where are the house batteries??? They are behind the entertainment center that is not easily removed. I’m not saying these things to point to how this major converter puts a coach together but rather pointing to how newer coaches don’t lend themselves well to owner maintenance.

My opinion is that a late 90’s to early 2000’s Prevost is less expensive to maintain than a mass produced plastic coach. Although the plastic coach will start our less expensive to maintain, many of the plastic coaches begin to fall apart after 50,000 miles or so. My 99 with 100,000 miles has less noises than my 2008 Beaver Contessa with 16,000. The major expenses are no different between my Prevost and Beaver. Same number and size of tires, the Beaver had 2 more air bags, same amount of oil needing changed, etc… My CC has an extra inverter/charger and more house battery capacity, so a bit more cost at battery replacement time.

The cost of ownership isn’t that different from a tag axle plastic coach. So, it shouldn’t be a major consideration when choosing between a mass produced plastic coach and a conversion.

Just my 2 cents,

[Archived]

Compromises. It’s all about compromises.

First, everyone has to recognize the converters are building the coaches for the first buyer.

Is there anyone on this planet that thinks a guy that plunks down the money it takes to buy a new coach is going to be the same guy to swap out house batteries? Or chase problems with his gee-whiz touch screen control? And even for that one in a thousand new coach buyer that is actually going to do his own maintenance he has to pull the entertainment center to get at his batteries because there wasn’t another spot on the coach to stick them because there are so many features there was no room left.

There is no comparison between two coaches as recent as 10 years apart. If Prevost hasn’t been the one making big changes, it is the converter. Today the chassis has a multiplex wiring system. So does the house. Today the chassis has adaptive braking, fire suppression, and stabilty control. Today the house has features that did not exist 10 years ago. Slides which used to be a service issue just are no longer discussed because they are so reliable. The houses are made of light weight materials and converters do everything they can to maintain weight and balance. You can control a lot of the conversions from a phone or ipad.

Unless you are a new coach buyer you have little influence over today’s product. The conversions produced today meet the needs of the new coach buyer, and we who drive second hand coaches get what the converters and original owners wanted.

I would like the weight of my first coach, the mileage of my second coach and the slides of my current coach. I want the bay space of my second coach, the simplicity of my first coach and the silence and quality of my current coach. I want the ease of pressing a button and making all my shades go up or down, but I want the shade reliability of my first coach. I like one button operation of my TV and satellite dish, but when I want to upgrade I don’t want to have to have my whole coach reprogrammed to reflect the change in TV or sound syste,

But as a used bus buyer, I take what I can get.