[Archived]

I see the Cirrus as the same band aid that is being applied to commercial airplanes and self driving cars.

Kind of sad we have allowed technology to replace skills and brain power.

[Archived]

I am in full agreement with what both of you are saying. There has been, and I’m sure still is, concern that some are getting into situations that have caused the chute to be used that they wouldn’t have gotten into had they not had it. After having said that, it’s a fact that people get killed regularly by getting themselves into weather situations that are beyond the capabilities of them or their airplanes. Maybe it’s some of those that are being saved by the chutes. Good judgement is the ticket and some have it and some don’t. It has always been amazing to me that some folks seem to have no idea as to where the line is between what they can or can’t do.

Since the airplane is always sacrificed with the use of the chute, I can’t help but wonder if a pilot that used it due to his own poor judgement can ever get insurance on an airplane again. If I were the underwriter, there would be no question.

Also, there is no question that modern technology has had a serious impact on the perceived need for, and therefore the development of, good basic airmanship. How good would you think that the new breed is at dead reckoning or in the use of an E6B?

[Archived]

Boy, I don’t know. I bought an hour of dual in an SR22 about ten years ago. Probably closer to 15 years ago. It was a really cool experience. I loved all three of the Beechcraft airplanes that I owned, but how many Bonanzas are being produced today? I think it is closer to 10 per year than 100. The market has surely spoken. We may not be producing the same kind of pilot (and I’m no Bob Hoover), but the technology progression is a lot of fun to watch.

[terry]

The Cirrus, like self driving cars is aimed at people whose brain has gotten lazy.

A great deal of my flying was in the shitty weather of Jamestown NY that had more than its share of low approaches, really nasty lake effect snow storms and lots of icing, courtesy of Lake Erie. I hand flew every approach except one when I lost a cylinder and the work and effort I put into maintaining my skills was often criticized by pilots who repeatedly kept telling me i needed to let the autopilot fly the approaches.

Nope, I will never be convinced the solution is to pull the rip cord. Fly the damn plane, and if you cannot, stay on the ground.

[Mark]

My neighbor in Duluth is Pat Waddick. Super nice guy and a big shot at Cirrus. They had an oil line come off of a newly serviced turbo SR-22 about 10-12 years ago and it landed on the highway by my Duluth shop. They towed it to our yard. A mechanic forgot to tighten the oil line that runs the waste gate on a turbocharger. It was on an acceptance flight at the time with a new customer. No damage to the airframe, but the engine was toast. I got a chance to look it over and it is pretty nice. Still not sure why they have so many pull the aw shit handle. Maybe lack of training or something…??

There was oil from the rear of the engine bay all the way to the tail…messy.

[Archived]

I would wager any pilot that pulls the rip cord lacks the skills to prevent a loss of control situation. The old time pilots who preceded the current crop who rely solely on the plane systems to save their ass got worn out by instructors and recurrent training in which we practiced recovery from unusual attitudes.

Put the hood on, and look down into your lap. The instructor would move the plane around a lot, and when he got it in a position where it was about to stall, about to roll, about to exceed speed, etc. you were told it was your plane, and solely by instruments you had to get back to straight and level.

No AP for approaches, No glass cockpit and the pilot actually had to maintain spatial awareness and not rely on following the magenta line. Today it is a different world. Cirrus used to teach new owners if they got into trouble to turn on the autopilot. They should have taught them to learn how to fly.

[Art]

For those of you who haven’t had the opportunity to see it, in 1997 after the American Airlines crash near Cali Columbia, American Airlines Captain Warren Vanderburgh did a presentation at the American Airlines Training center titled “Children of Magenta”. It is available on YouTube for viewing. It addresses the pitfalls that modern technology and automation in flying airplanes have brought about and stresses that basic airmanship should not be, as it seems to be becoming, a thing of the past. All pilots currently flying any type of airplane should see this and it should be a requirement for those operating current state of the art equipment such as the Cirrus. Do yourself a favor and watch it at your earliest convenience.

[Ed]

I’ve taken many flights on a SR-22. Since I have no desire to learn how to fly, as a passenger, it’s comforting to know that should something happen to the pilot and/or the aircraft, under a worst case scenario, the pull of the handle can be a lifesaver.

Okay, can we now talk about autonomous aircraft?

(I just wanted to see if Jon is watching!)

[Greg]

Andy you have false expectations. Even the use of the parachute rip cord on a Cirrus has limitations and procedures and if a pilot lacks the basic skills to fly the plane, as a passenger you need to pray he at least learned the procedures and limitations for chute use.

Why is it non-pilots always judge pilot skills by how well the guy lands. Smooth landing does not equal good pilots. It is one of the many factors, but I will take my lumps from John Carroll if i am wrong, but in 10 minutes I can judge a pilot’s skills and he doesn’t need to land a plane for me to know if I ever want my family in the plane.

[John]

To add to my rant, I hope everyone realizes if you fly commercial the chances are almost 100% the plane did all the flying without any control input from the pilot, except for possibly a minute or so. The pilot may not have even landed the plane. It has been this way for a couple of decades.

Those that support autonomous vehicles will love that. No more of those pesky unskilled pilots controlling their fate.

But if you want to get your shorts in a bunch, do a Google search of Airbus. It is a fly by wire aircraft and if you take the time to do the analysis of the well over 1000 deaths attributed to the plane you will find a serious percentage of those deaths were the result of pilots incapable of actually flying the plane when the computers puked.

Again, I yield to John and his opinion on this topic, but his previous post about pilots needing basic skills is a sad commentary on the fact the emphasis today is pilots need to be adept at following procedure, not flying the plane.

[Joe]

The chute is just a crutch. It will cause some to take risks above their training and skill level. When you use it you now have lost all control since you`re at the mercy of the wind.

[AL]

Jon, you’re right on target. We’ve been talking about the Cirrus, but what about the Boeing 737 Max? It has been grounded since March of 2019 after two accidents resulting in 346 fatalities due to the combination of building an airplane dynamically unstable to the point that it requires computer assistance to fly it for the sake of fuel economy, and that computer not being able to be trusted to do the job reliably due to programming issues. This is where our leading edge technology has taken us. And mostly, if not all, in the name of lower overall costs of the operation. Squeezing the last revenue mile possible from the last dollar spent. Maybe the bottom line issue here is that it’s just too big for a ballistic recovery chute.

We need, in my opinion, to stick with airplanes that have reasonable safety margins that are designed into them a reasonable distance back from the ragged edge and we need to get back to training pilots rather than “airplane managers” (not my words but an industry term) and computer geeks.

[John]

I have a friend who was the commander of a F-15 squadron and now a 737 Max pilot prior to the grounding.

His comments are that the accidents were both by foreign companies and poor performing pilots, records to document.

He said their was definitely more skill to fly it than the earlier versions of 737’s.

He said it was capable of dragging the tail on takeoff and on landing if it was over rotated.

[Bill]

Yep, I’m sure there is merit to what he had to say, but I would add that it is possible, and it does happen, to drag the tail on most of, if not all of the airplanes, in the airline inventory. DC-9s and 727s on up through 747s. They all have hard point over rotation protection devices to minimize the damage from such an event by a ham fisted pilot. All professional groups have a cross section of members. The good, the bad and the ugly. On one end there are those that are absolute masters and on the other end there are those that should really be in another line of work.

[Dick]

The FAA flight instructor’s manual said if you cannot dazzle a student with brilliance baffles them with B. S.