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An Electrical Issue: Generator? Inverter?
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A little more information. I have not fired up the generator yet, I have had services day and night since in Wichita, but I plan to change the oil and fire it up Thursday morning.
Breaker
I did take the panel lid off in the generator compartment and there is absolutely no indication that any wires were loose or that any wires or breaker were ever hot because of a loose connections. I was actually hoping to find a loose connection.
My Dad who has been an electrician for over 50 years (and admittedly knows nothing about the electricity in any conversions, especially Vantare) does know a thing or two about breakers. He said breakers obviously wear out when used as switches. They weaken in the amount of amps they can carry when they are damaged by heat. They can weaken in ambient heat as amps rise because of the heat.
However, He said that in all of his experience in industrial, commercial and residential he has never seen a breaker weaken in the amount of amps they can carry without a loose connection or something else that would cause the damage. He is betting against the breaker.
He admits he could be proven wrong and I hope he is wrong this time, since changing the breaker is the easiest fix, but my experience with my Dad puts my theory at a disadvantage.
I may buy a breaker here or source one in OKC for next week just in case.
Dial
I too have the rotary dial for each inverter. I was told “Normal” is the normal setting so there they have remained.
In my Vantare, there is rotatory dial that controls how AC electricity is directed with the coach. The choices are normal (through the inverter), Gen only, Shore power only and off. In my coach if you set to shore power or gen only, then not sent through inverter.
I do not know if this helps you at all at this time, but thought the information might allow you to function or at least test systems.
Kim and Jerry both mentioned this and I am very interested in knowing how this works. Let’s say an inverter goes wacky, can I put the switch to shore power or generator and get power to the coach. Will the batteries still be charged? Could one be left on “Normal” and that inverter charge the batteries and the other one be turned to shore or generator to bypass a failing inverter?
Tomorrow is going to be a good hot day here so if the inverters bring the generator online after I crank it, then I will load it up and let it run and see what happens.
Thanks for all of the help.
Davy
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In my coach itt is a little different. I only have one dial that controls how the AC electricity is routed. I have tried all of the positions int he coach. With the dial set to normal, obviously the batteries are charged, and everything goes through the inverter. With the dial set to shore power, I have no AC electricity to the coach when not plugged in. When plugged in to shore power (generator will not power the coach if dial set to shore power), everything works reference the AC powered devices, and the batteries are being charged. With the switch set to generator then only the generator can power the AC devices, or charge the batteries. It appears this rotatory switch is at least partially taking the place of the transfer switch that determines which AC power is going to be allowed to pass through into the bus (Gen or Shore), as well as bypassing the inverter if that fails. Many years ago had Prevost Dallas turn the dial (do not know why) and did not know this till travelling since was hooked up to shore power prior to leaving and did not notice until wanted to trun on lights when pulled into rest area for short stop after dark. Figured out the problem was probably at switch and hoped was jsut that it was changed from “normal” position, which was the case.
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What Kim describes is a great feature, Inverter Bypass and will save the day if your inverters go bad. If you don’t have one, you may want to add a Bypass for piece of mind.
My Marathon came with one, did your Liberty?:)
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Tom brings up a good point and all owners should know enough about their coach to determine what if anything they can do if an inverter goes bad.
This is especially true of earlier vintage coaches because the inverters are not getting any younger and they are starting to fail. What may now seem like a remote possibility of being inconvenienced takes on new meaning when you are just starting a trip, are miles from home and your normal service provider, and the inverter that has the refrigerator on its circuits decides to quit. And it is full of steaks.
Later model coaches were designed by the converters to have alternate ways of getting power to all circuits in the event of a failure, but some earlier conversions did not. Nothing can be more frustrating to have an inverter failure and have generator or shore power that you cannot get to the inverter circuits.
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Thank you for the extra information on the rotary dial. That may come in handy some day IF I can remember it!
I doubled checked for signs of heat at the genny breaker this morning, even removing the wires and there is no sign any it has ever been loose or hot.
I changed the oil and filters, cranked it up at the inverter and the generator power came online and put the shore power into standby. I have turned on the AC loads and I will probably run it all day and hope Sunday night does not duplicate.
When I crank it up this Friday night, I need it to run all week problem free!
Davy
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Bad News! After 4 hours and 20 minutes of the generator running with two AC’s, one on each inverter, the fridge, the water heater and all the normal household stuff, the main breaker on the generator kicked. We were in the bus and heard the difference in the AC and jumped up to look at the inverters. They were both inverting so I am inclined to believe this is the same thing that happened Sunday night, only this time we turned off the heavy loads before the inverter went into error.
I removed the generator breaker and tried to source it here in Wichita. It is a 70 amp Square D surface mount and most of the electrical supply places here said, “Huh?” I finally found a sure nuf supply house and the guy knew exactly what it was but could not get it till Monday. He had the 60 amp version and I almost bought it just to get going.
He gave me the number, QOU270 and then I called every one again. Granger can have it first thing tomorrow morning. It is pricey but it is the next thing to try. The original breaker looks and feels fine and was not overly hot at all when it tripped. I hope this is it.
I will install it, crank the generator and start the test again as soon as I get it.
Davy
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Davy, keep us posted…with shore power holding everything then I cant imagine you have a house issue…also note that with it working for 4 hours I would doubt that you have a short in the wiring from gen to house…however with it heating up from both gen heat and the heat of the load on the Circuit Breaker it fails….If this does not fix the problem then you will be heading from the gen to its connection with the house systems…
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Your breaker has 2 line feeds. We lost only one line in a simular breaker recently. Was not really evident till we checked voltage across line one/line two and only came up with 110V instead of 220V replaced breaker and all is good. We showed 110V on each side but was feed back on one. Your dad will understand. Also you could have had the perfect storm in loads. 2 ac kicking on at same time uo to 20amps each start up plus maybe another 20 to 25 amps on hot water plus other loads. Hope this makes sense? Not vantare specific but could be basic supply issue. fingers crossed. Bob
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Thanks Jeff and Bob. I did check my voltage on both ends of the breaker when I started the genny this morning. It was 120 on each leg to ground and 240 across both legs. I did not think to check the voltage after the breaker tripped and the genny was still running.
Bob, my Dad thinks something is spiking the amps enough to trip the breaker too. I have a hard time believing the load spiked too heavy for the genny but I am willing to consider anything. We ran 205 hours that week with 100+ heat index every day and most of the time had three AC’s running since we were sitting on a blacktop parking lot in the sun with no shade.
Plus, this week we have been plugged into 50 amp shore power with 60′ of cord and 95+ temps, full sun and on a black top parking lot again. We went all week without tripping the 50 amp breaker in the church and then tripped the 70 amp genny breaker in 4 hours 20 minutes. I have a hard time wrapping my head around that.
I should get the new breaker Friday morning. I am cheering for it to hold. My Dad is cautiously optimistic but pessimistic by experience. Again, he is not familiar with the conversion wiring but he thinks something may be hokey between the genny and inverters or with the generator since all is behaving well on shore power.
IF the new breaker does not hold, then my next idea is to wire my 50 amp pig tail into the top of the breaker and plug the bus into that. That will bypass the wiring between the genny and the inverters. If it holds like that, then the wiring in between is suspect. If it trips like that, then something from the genny is suspect.
Davy
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Davy:
Can you turn your rotary switch to Shore, start your Gen and plug your shore power cord into your Buddy plug?
Since you are able to run on shore power, that should simulate being plugged into a pedistal.
A non “Sparky” … Fred
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Fred,
Great idea, but I do not have a buddy plug on my bus. That is effectively what I will try to do IF the new breaker trips after a few hours. I will wire my 50 amp pig tail to the top of the generator breaker and bypass the wiring between the generator and the inverters.
Davy
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Be careful Davy.
If the breaker tripped as has been mentioned, either the breaker has gotten “tired” and it fails even with light loading by opening. That is not an uncommon type of failure.
But if the problem is downstream as you discussed as a potential the issue sounds intermittent and if it is it liikely is between the power supply and the electrical panel which sends me a signal that it is big. If it were beyond the electrical panel the breaker in the panel would have tripped on the guilty circuit.
intermittent problems can become steady problems and anytime electric is involved there is no substitute for finding the problem before restoring power.
In my plane I had a rule. If a breaker tripped, I allowed myself to reset it once. If it tripped again (the position you are in now) I would not allow myself to reset it, no matter how important that circuit was in my mind. The risk was too great.
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Could well be two 50 amp lines = 100 amps. Nice to have dad that can interpit(sp) elect terms.
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I appreciate your insight, Bob. It has been valuable to me since before PC began.
Thank you for your caution, Jon. I intend to heed it. The last thing I want is a dangerous situation with my family sleeping in this thing. As much as this frustrates me and complicates our life at the moment, safety must remain the priority.
The breaker tripped Sunday night with the generator running. The breaker tripped the next time I ran the generator Thursday as a test after 4 hours and 20 minutes. Thankfully I have shore power this week. After today I will not have access to shore power all week IF I stay onsite with the tent in OKC like I need to.
The consensus here seemed to be the breaker was probably “tired” as you say. It seemed to me the next logical step was to replace the breaker. If the new breaker trips, then I am assured there is a problem at the generator or downstream from the generator. Am I thinking straight?
Davy
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Your description seems to point at a lazy breaker so that is the logical place to start. However if that trips you have to be a detective and find out what’s going on.
Am I correct in assuming if your batteries are charged you can have most if not all electric devices functioning? I ask because if that is true run your coach on high idle all weekend.
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