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An Electrical Issue: Generator? Inverter?
I am not sure if the root cause of this is the generator, Trace inverter or some where else but I will place this in the electrical thread. I do not know where to start so I will go plum around the mulberry bush and give you the sequence of events as I know them.
We have had a very hot and humid week in Tulsa, Oklahoma. We were without shore power so the generator ran 205 hours straight with no problems. Sunday night I ran to the bus to changed into work clothes to take the tent down and noticed the front air was off. I opened the panel door and discovered the #2 inverter was inverting and the #1 inverter was in error and shut completely down and was not inverting. Both red lights on #1 inverter were solid. Those red lights are “Error” and “Over Current.” The generator was still running but not showing power at the inverters.
The generator or shore power usually flashes a green light for a moment and then goes solid to indicate the power is in good. The green light was not on at all even though the generator was running.
I turned #1 inverter off and back on to clear the error but it did nothing. I went to the generator menu and moved it from “ON” to “Off” and also “Auto” and the generator kept running. I left it in “Auto” and hit the stop button and the generator shut down.
I went to the inverter bay to make sure the fans were on and inverter #1 felt hot to the touch. I was afraid it was fried or something since the controls would not make it function or clear the error. The only error that read “Yes” was the generator start error. No one was in the bus when this happend but as far as I know the generator had never been off.
I was in a hurry, flustered and hot so what I did next was a rookie mistake. I did not turn off the loads on side #1 so my front AC, water heater and fridge were left on with the generator in “Auto” mode. The inverter was not inverting so nothing on that side was running. Some time in the next 90 minutes the generator came back on. I suppose the amp draw called for it since I left the front AC and water heater on. The inverter was in error and shut down but evidently it still called for the generator to come online.
(Keep in mind, this is a Vantare so EVERYTHING 110 runs through the inverters.)
When I got back to the bus, the generator was running but neither inverter was showing any power from the generator and the #1 inverter was still in error. I went to the Flying J to get diesel, empty tanks and get my wits about me. Thank God for good working bus AC that cooled us off.
First I set the generator to “OFF” mode at inverter #1 and then I shut the generator down again manually. Once the generator was off, I cycled the inverter itself to “OFF” and back “ON” and the solid red error lights went away and it started inverting.
I did not know if the inverters would have power if plugged in to shore power or not. It was too late to call anyone so I came onto to our next stop in Wichita and plugged into solid shore power.
I arrived in the night and plugged into shore power and the inverters showed power and everything was fine. Some time in the night it occured to me that something was interupted between the generator and the inverters. I checked and sure enough the main 70 amp breaker at the generator was tripped.
I will take the panel lid off and check for loose connections. Beyond that, I am stumped. Could be a weak breaker although it does not feel weak and I do not ever remember flipping it off and on. It is probably 21 years old. I think I will replace it with a 100 amp for good measure. JOKING!
I have not turned the generator back on to see if the inverters will switch over to it as they should. I have no reason to believe they will not but it is very hot here this week and I do not want to go back to the situation of last night with no power at all.
Starting Saturday I will need the generator all week for another scorcher in OKC. What else should I consider? An inverter problem? A generator problem? Loose wires some where else? A fluke from excessive heat? I am open to ideas.
Davy
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44 Replies
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Davy, my bus is wired like a Vantare, except that I have 2 Cruisaire units on each inverter and it sounds like you have one bigger a/c unit on each inverter. Based on my experience, I postulate that the breaker on the generator tripped first, and the #1 inverter went into overcurrent when trying to suck enough juice from the batteries to run the a/c unit, fridge and waterheater. Here is my experience: While running all 4 Cruisaires off the generator, the generator suddenly quit (wire to fuel pump rattled loose). I was nearby, but it took me a few minutes to get to bus. When I got there, one inverter was showing overcurrent and had shut down, and the other was powering 2 a/c units from the batteries. Like you, my fridge and water heater are also powered by the inverter that had shut down. I don’t know why running off pure battery is harder on the inverter than running off the generator, but apparently it is. This is the only time I have ever had an inverter shut down. This is a possible explanation for the inverter condition you observed, but it does not answer why the 70amp breaker at the generator tripped. Maybe it would be a good idea to lay in a spare breaker before you start your next trip.
p.s.: You must have arrived at your bus shortly after the breaker tripped, because the a/c units cannot run off battery power for very long. It seems like your inverter #2 was still running on battery power when you got there.
Good luck!
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Davey,
The absolute expert on your electrical system is Ben Cummings. I urge you to contact him first and try to record everything that happened so you can provide him with as much information as possible. I know he is up to his butt in alligators but try to get in a conversation with him. It may be a simple issue or you may have something serious. In the meantime remember one thing, You have an OTR bus and a big alternator. That is your backup if needed for cooling and charging.
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The breaker on the gen is a 70 amp breaker, so if it tripped and you are plugged into shore power without a problem, I would assume the issue is with the gen….This could be as simple as a weak breaker on the gen. I would think that when you are ready you could run the gen, however pulling the cover and checking the connections etc on the breaker would be a good first step…
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Thank you guys. For clarity, Bryan, I removed the Cruise Airs in 2009 and added four roof airs. numbers 1 and 4 are on #1 inverter and numbers 2 and 3 are on #2 inverter. When I left the bus with the generator running I had on AC numbers 1 and 3, one on each side. Number 3 that runs off #2 inverter was still on when I went in and found the problem. It will run a couple of hours but not near as long as it did when my batteries were new in June of 2012.
I can see what you are saying Bryan about the overcurrent issue and that the generator probably kicked the breaker first. That seems right to me but when it first happend I was sure the inverter was to blame.
My generator will come on when set to “Auto” when the amp load is a certain amount for a certain time. It confuses me that inverter #1 called for the generator to come on when the inverter was seemingly shut down.
I had thought about Ben and Jeff of course when it first happened. I will drop Ben an email if I do not find evidence of loose wiring in the generator panel.
I will be changing the oil in the generator one morning this week and I will check for loose wiring then, Jeff.
Thank again.
Davy
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Do you have both inverters set to run the auto-start? That may be part of the problem and solved by just one inverter controlling the auto-start function.
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When the generator is running, AC power is just passed through the invertor. Some of it is converted to DC power to charge the house batteries, but it wouldn’t be much if the generator had been running for a while, as the house battery state of charge would be in the float region. If the main generator breaker tripped, the invertors would then have to start inverting. The entire load of the AC system would be coming through the conversion process from DC to AC, and that makes the invertor work harder than simply passing gen power through to the AC loads and float charging the batteries.
I guess there’s nothing to stop the compressors from the roof airs and/or the refrigerator from starting up at the same time. Even with capacitors, there will be an increased draw on startup that could be enough to trip a breaker. If those components are on their own breakers on the panel, they wouldn’t trip their individual circuits but they could trip the main breaker where they combine.
The overcurrent error thrown while inverting could be proper operation. What is the watt rating on one invertor compared to the combined loads that were on it with the roof air/water heater/refrigerator?
Is your generator controlled by the invertors? Our bus has a stand-alone unit (watchdog) that starts the generator. It sounds like your’s might too by the fact that it started back up even with the main breaker tripped and the invertors in error. The watchdog monitors the batteries. Our new invertors have the option if you go through the settings on the remote, but we didn’t configure them to control the AGS.
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Jeff,
Regarding having only one inverter controlling the auto start, we have both of ours on auto and it seems to work. Should we change it to only one?
We have an H3 2004 Vantare .Thank you
Chris
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My set up is controlled by inverter #1. The generator auto start is linked to inverter #1 only. Inverter #2 has no standing over the generator but is set to “Off” for good measure. No watchdog in my Vantare, it is all controlled by the inverters.
Davy
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That’s correct Davy, in a Vantare, only the #1 inverter is connected to Gen auto start.
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In my Vantare, there is rotatory dial that controls how AC electricity is directed with the coach. The choices are normal (through the inverter), Gen only, Shore power only and off. In my coach if you set to shore power or gen only, then not sent through inverter.
I do not know if this helps you at all at this time, but thought the information might allow you to function or at least test systems.
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Jon,
Do you happen to have any more details about how they are set up? Why would they need to invert incoming AC power into outgoing AC power?
Also, how do you quote a post?
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I am not sure how exactly Vantare set up their electrical system. I do know however every device is powered through the inverters, I just would not want to say for sure if it is a pass through on shore or generator power. That is why Ben has to jump in here if he can.
Kim has explained what might be how all are set up, or it might be how some are set up. I say it that way because I had a friend with a Vantare and he had one inverter fail and he had no means to get power to half his electric panel. As Kim describes his has a provision for by-pass.
Over the years all converters have modified their electric systems, in part because of needed changes, such as providing a means of by-passing a failed inverter, or because inverter technology has provided some sophisticated means of improving the systems such as being able to draw from shore power and inverted power, controlling the generator, or syncing the phases and ganging inverters.
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To quote a post, cut and paste the desired portion of the post onto the new reply.
You can put in quotation marks or change text color or somehow make it clear you are quoting.
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I have owned 3 Vantare’s, all of them have had the Big rotary Dial bypass switches as Kim described above. 1 for each inverter. the switches are in one of the Bays.
I would vote for a new breaker in Davy’s situation first.
6/21/2016 8:57:10 AM
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