[Robert]

Bennetts office in Missoula also told me the dealers that coaches are being purchased from shares this information with the buyers home state. The way I see it, Bennett being the “big guy” in Montana LLC’s for RV’s tells me not to do business with him because I live in Illinois….. That is enough for me..

[Archived]

Just my feelings there are a lot more things that will cost you once you buy a Prevost than just the tax and registration , the tax people will get it one way or another , try and enjoy the ride and drive a Prevost , It’s the ride of your life !!!

[Archived]

I will assume registered agents will not sell the lists of those evading taxes because once that word gets out their business will suffer, and it does the entire industry no good if folks are caught and end up paying the taxes, plus interest, plus fines.

But I can be certain when I say the DMV in states sells their list of registrations.

I use the middle initial “W”. By mistake NY issued a title on a new car I purchased using the middle initial “C’.

When I found out the BS I would have to go through to get them to correct their error I just ignored the mistake and kept the title with the wrong middle initial. Within months I started receiving junk mail sent to Jon C. That was over 30 years ago and I still get junk mail using the wrong middle initial and the only entity that had that erroneous initial was the NY state DMV.

[Larry & Diane]

This really is a weight issue I think. If your vehicle
weights more than 26,001 lbs you need a Class B license for a “straight” truck (bus) the length in not
a factor really unless over 65 ft total. A Class A license is required if it’s a tractor/trailer (truck). A
Class B license can pull a trailer up to 10,000 lbs. An LLC registered vehicle
is “commercial” so all laws apply. Register the vehicle in the State you reside
in (vote in) and have the proper insurance and DOT regs complied with and all
is good.

Fred

[glen]

Fred, I think your advice is state specific. In my state the use to which the vehicle is put will determine whether or not it is a commerical vehicle. Whether it is registered to an individual as opposed to a business entity is not relevant. Also, the length of the vehicle does determine licensure needed, at least for motorhomes. In California a standard drivers licence is all that is needed to drive a motorhome under 40 feet, regardless of its weight. A class B (commerical or non-commerical, depending on the use) is required to drive a bus or motorhome 40 feet or longer.

[Archived]

Bryan, spot on with your comment. Initially I desired to have a CDL. I found that in NC al that is required to operate our coaches is a Class C driver’s license. I questioned that and was advised that if I wanted a CDL I would have to carry 16+ passengers or routinely tow a 10,000 lb trailer. Of course I was not going to do either one, not enough seats and my plan was to tow my Ram 4×4 four wheels down.

The best NC DMV would do is allow me to take the license exam and road test for a Classified B license. I took the test, took the road test, passed both and dropped my “M” endorsement at that time.

So everyone should check their individual state DMV requirements that apply to their coach. Being involved in a crash with just a Class C license while rolling along in a 48,000 lb coach with air brakes did not seem to be a positive. So I stepped up as far as they would allow me to go. I also have the dash cam recommended by Jon recently on the way. Delivery expected on 6th January 2015.

I also have the coach and towed vehicle registered right here in NC. Forget Montana.

[Larry & Diane]

I would love to have some of our lawyers chime in on this issue.

I think the last two posts each have good points. Specifically, if a coach is owned by and registered to an LLC (a business entity) it is considered commercial. I am not aware of any entity such as an LLC that is not a business. If I understand the reason for an LLC (apart from the tax evasion aspect) it is to create a legal owner that has “being” at a Montana address making its purchase of a vehicle subject to the MT tax laws, which is to say no taxes are due.

But it is a business. Businesses do not own assets that are not used for the furtherance of the business. Using that line of thinking then Fred I believe correctly makes the point that vehicle, as a commercial vehicle obligates its drivers and operators to comply with federal and state regulations that relate to commercial vehicles. It may not be for hire, but like a company owned truck it has to be registered as a commercial vehicle and that imposes an obligation on the driver to be licensed to drive such a vehicle as well as observing other commercial requirements.

The fact that people for the most part have stayed below the radar while being residents of another state while having their bus registered to an MT LLC does not prove the commercial regulations do not apply.

But I agree the state of residency dictates the requirements for licensing (assuming the vehicle is not a commercial vehicle). The vast majority of states require no special license for the operation of our coaches regardless of their size or weight. They are motor homes or RVs, and as such when operated for private use only only a relatively small number of states will require other than a license acceptable for a car,

[Larry & Diane]

The downside to a CDL in Texas is if you get a speeding ticket even in your vehicle you can’t get a deferred adjudication, it WILL go on your record… then I believe 3 strikes and you are out, whereas with a reg license you can get a deferred adjudication, keeping it off your record which is a plus.

We use the dash camera, try not to speed, and don’t break the rules of the road.

We are not required to have a CDL in TX to drive your recreational vehicle… whatever it is.

Hope I got this right?

Diane

[Archived]

I asked a freind that is LEO and he said no CDL for private owned coaches in Texas. I had a class A and let it go years ago and have C now. You never know when you get stopped though. Fellow mentioned earlier about answering too many questions and not to incriminate yourself. We all know in Texas and these small towns (mine being one of them) if you don’t answer what they feel is right , they will haul you down. I know that doesn’t sound right but pick up a Fayette County Record Newspaper and read the police/sheriff log and see what they grab folks on. Petty in my books. That being said, I support the LEO’s in everyway. Of another subject about scales, about 10 years ago, me and 2 others in my welding business, down south of Odessa Tx. all of us driving my 1 ton welding trucks made us pull across scales and no problem with ours, but a fella in a Converted Eagle ahead of me got a ticket for 15,000 lbs. over what he had it titled for. He had a Private Coach sign beside door and He was pissed. Had family with him. I talked to him and he had it titled for 17,900 lbs and it weighed 32,000lbs. plus and they wrote him up for overweight vehicle. He told me he knew it was over but saved him 2 or 3 hundred dollars a year on tags. I don’t cheat on anything cause with my luck I’d be in the slammer!

[Bill]

California Vehicle Code section 260 provides:

(a) “A “commerical vehicle” is a vehicle which is used or maintained for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation or profit or designed, used or maintained primarily for the transport of property (for example, trucks and pickups).

(b) Passenger vehicles and house cars that are not used for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation or profit are not commercial vehicles. …

(c) Any vanpool vehicle is not a commercial vehicle. …”

In California Career Schools v. Dept. of Motor Vehicles, (2004) 120 Cal.App.4th, 10 interpreting this section, the court of appeal said “A commerical vehicle does not mean that it is used in business.” In that case the court looked to the original purpose of the vehicle. The court then went on to find that the vehicle in question, a bobtail truck that had been converted to an RV by the addition of beds, a kitchen and bathroom, was still a “commercial vehicle” that required commercial registration, apparently on the strength of testimony of a highway patrol officer that the sleeper berths on most big rigs are nicer than the “RV” in question.

Our buses fall squarely within the definition of “house cars.”

I don’t intend to give legal or tax advice, but at least in California I see no reason that a business entity cannot own and register a non-commercial vehicle as long as it is not used to transport people for “hire, compensation or profit.” In fact, the vanpool example imbedded in the statute shows that they can.

By the way, I am very well aware of all of the various registration schemes available, yet my bus is registered in California as a non-commercial house car, in my own name at my own address. To each his/her own.

Again, no legal or tax advice is intended by this post.

[Archived]

I have to disagree Bryan.

There are a lot of commercial purposes for a vehicle that do not include carrying passengers or goods. For example, some companies use coaches for the purpose of bringing displays to clients or trade shows. Some use them to transport important customers. Some vehicles carry nothing but the driver but are commercial such as Gradall trucks with cranes on the rear.

They are all typically licensed as commercial, and as such require commercial drivers.

[Bryan]

Things are changing and have been for a while now I think.
States are trying to find as much revenue as possible wherever possible and it’s
coming down to include larger vehicles of all types. There’s “interstate” and
“intrastate” regs too so if you just drive in your home state then you may be
ok. But if you travel the Country then I believe it’s a new and changing ball
game. Recently, I found out that the “interstate” regs say a driver of a bus
(doesn’t say house car or RV or motor home) over 26,0001 LBS that is “designed”
to carry more than 16 people (including the driver) requires that the driver to
have a “passenger” endorsement on their license. In addition they are now
asking for an “air break endorsement”. Pretty much all buses are “designed” to
carry more then 16 people and have air brakes so do you think we are all
required now to have a passenger endorsement and air brake endorsements and a CDL? By
“design” is it the basic shell of the design or the ending conversion? I’m not
an attorney and most of this really is “determined” road side when you get pulled over and by the courts but in any case I think I’d rather be covered then have
to keep having to look over my shoulder.

Fred

[Larry & Diane]

Fred, the important word there is “designated” Motor coaches such as ours are not designated
(or technically designed) to carry that many passengers. That would require proper seats and safety
belts for those passengers. Air brakes are still okay under the current laws
(which are grey at best).

[Reagan]

Yes I agree Charles and hope you are right but its that dang “grey” word that I’m really worried about!

[Tom]

Jon, the staute talks about carrying “property” not “goods” and it looks to the primary use for which the vehicle is “maintained”, so I think the vehicles you described are probably within the defintion of commercial vehicles for purposes of registration. I don’t doubt that vehicles outside the clear statutory definition are registered as commerical, especially since the DMV gets to interpret the statute and make regulations based thereon. For example, the statute implies that all pick up trucks are commerical vehicles, but the Cal DMV has applied that section only to pickups with payload capacity of one ton or more. Many smaller pickups are registered as non-commerical unless they are used for a business purpose and the owner chooses commercial registration. The definition of commerical vehicles may also be state specific. Additionally, the statute I cited is only for the purpose of which vehicles are registered as commercial, not which vehicles may only be driven by someone with a commerical license. That is a totally different issue and there is a different statute for that.

In any event, the question I answered was not about any of that. The question was whether all vehicles owned by a business entity such as a LLC, and particularly a converted bus, must be registered as a commerical vehicle. I think the answer is “no.”