-
Royal vs Country Coach
-
Gil, we may be talking about apples and oranges, but there is agreement.
If an owner I am buying a coach from has no records I have to assume nothing was ever done and I hope I am lucky and not buying a disaster. I can place a value on having to zero a coach out and that affects what I want to pay. Or I can walk away if the seller cannot prove coolant and Transynd and other critical events were not done.
But I am not talking about documenting daily tasks. I keep detailed logs but I don’t document tire pressure checks, oil level checks, etc. But since our service intervals are all over the calendar I have to have a list for all routine maintenance that includes a notation of when something was done, and when it was due. But in addition if I do anything beyond routine scheduled maitenance I also log and note those items.
Like you I drain my aux compressor water traps regularly but don’t note it. I drain my air tanks any time I have to get under my coach just as a matter of course. I only log those events however as part of my regular maintenance cycle with is 5000 miles.
What form the records take is not as important as good maintenance as you noted and we fully are in agreement on that. I have seen both sides of that issue, work noted as being done, but wasn’t, or work done but poorly. Regardless having all work logged is still important. To be honest, unless you as an owner stand and watch the service being done and you have some knowledge or skills in that area you may not be able to tell if it was done, or done poorly. That is why my previous post cautioned folks about the use of mechanics that are more convenient or less expensive than they are skilled. That was prompted by having two of our members being royally screwed by a mechanic who had no formal Prevost training that cost these two members a lot of money to reverse the damage.
But the bottom line I still maintain is that all work done on our coaches should be logged or the receipts retained or a detailed summary of work performed needs to be available otherwise I guarantee a coach is not getting the service as specified by the various suppliers of parts to our motorhome, including Prevost and the converter. We know this for a fact because I cannot tell you how many owners talk about their annual Prevost level whatever service. As soon as I hear that is what the owner thinks is servicing a coach properly I know for a fact that is a coach that is going to be a real problem down the road.
-
A special thanks to Doug and all the generous members of the Community. I am the one that Doug started the thread for. The responses have been great and the information on the forum is fantastic. Sleeping is no longer an option as I can not stop reading the threads.
We are considering our first prevost. Trying to figure out which one is right for us and if we will be able to maintain it as it should be. I have to admit it is intimidating.
First things first, how “old” is too old? We were fortunate enough to be guests at the Hilton Head SC Royale Rally, and all the members and coaches were great. The coaches were in beautiful shape and you could not tell the age unlike our current 2008 Monaco. We have been basing our search so far on 2000 and younger coaches in order to be post rivet.
We have been advised that we should only consider Liberty or Marathon as they are the only surviving converters. Not so sure about this as most of the components of all coaches are made by individual suppliers of each item. Our current Monaco is an orphan. Most of our problems have been adressed by inividual component manufactures not Monaco, except for our cable driven slide, but that is a whole threads worth of problem in itself.
We are very concerned about the previous maintaince of the coach. If records can not be produced, is it really 30K for bringing all systems up to date as was mentioned in the previous post? “Tires, batteries, belts, air bags, norgren valves, shocks, brakes, full service on the genny, aqua hot, engine and jun-aire system. It may have cost 30K to get it all done ”
I really love Jon’s inspection and maintaince article. Very informative and helpful. Thanks for taking the time to spell it out for us wannabies.
Some have told us that we are crazy and that Prevost’s are too expensive to run and the parts are too high from Prevost. It seems that on other threads, there is lots of discussion on less expensive parts from suppliers other than Prevost. What would be a realistic budget number to consider for operating the coach as it should be?
The coach we are looking at Panterra is this one, http://prevost-stuff.com/2001PrevostRoyaleXLII40_Panterra415.html , a 2001 Royale XLII 40 footer. Anyone have any insider info on this one? Thanks to Doug, I hooked up with Dan Jourdan at Royale Phoenix and he was familar with the coaches original owner, but he has not seen it for five years.
The 2002 Country Coach we were looking at at Legacy has been sold. More sleepless night looking at motorhome listings.
We are considering going to the Kentucky Expo next month to get an up close look at several coaches in one place.
Thanks again to all who have taken the time to answer and to the forum as a whole. It is a great community of members.
-
John, welcome.
How old is too old is really driven by features and advances more than mileage or age. This is tough for some traditional coach owners to grasp. It sounds like you have settled on Prevost’s most tested model, the XL. Great choice, as spoken by a XL owner. I’m assuming you don’t want or need a slide. There were few slides in XLs and all were put in by 3rd parties. Some of these slides are very good. The biggest concern I would have with a XL with slides is front axle weight.
Not all XLs were created equal. Personally, I would only have the series 60 engine. I wouldn’t care if the front axle was straight or independent. However, I would want independent for its increased weight carrying capacity. The late model XLs are there best.
The cost to zero out can be a heated discussion. There a lot of ultra conservative folks here, most former pilots. I don’t prescribe to the same level of zeroing. I would have analsis of fluids done to have a baseline and possibly discover problems. If the oil has more than 2,000 miles on it the oil analysis would be a condition of the sale. If it has a fresh change the analysis probably won’t uncover a thing. I would change all fluids, belts, and filters. Figure about $1K
I put safety first. I generally replace tires at 7+ years. Front tires are critical, so they will replaced if there’s any question as to how the old tires were maintained. Replacing all tires about $6K
Everything else can wait. Goodyear will tell you airbags should last as long as the coach. Entertainers drive 500,000 miles with no problems. They are rubber, so they should be inspected. I needlessly replaced mine at 12 years and 100K miles. They looked great. Given I was headed to Alaska, I don’t regret it.
Norgren valves and control solenoids may last forever. When your coach begins to get the leans and it bothers you, then you may need Norgren valve maintenance or bags. Check you engine air bag. In the heated environment of the engine bay and the way these are made I doubt many leak-free after 10 years.
Shocks get replaced when you feel the need.
Batteries, house and chassis, get replaced when needed. They aren’t hard to test. When it comes time for house batteries you may be able to get by with far fewer batteries than the coach came with. This will be debated too, but it’s not hard to determine how many you really know.
You already know and have experienced the ownership of an orphan. I too owned a Monaco built Beaver and now a Country Coach. There are some great orphans out there and with so many non orphan owners trying to steer prospective buyers to current converters, the deals can be very good. Country Coach made a well engineered product and there’s as much support for CC now as there was when they were around. Beware, some converters are very protective of their work. Some require you use them for everything they did; down to identifying which fuse you need to look at for a failure of whatever. All converters did some smart things and most did a couple of dumb things. You should be driven by floorplan, features you must have, and color.
FYI, I see Olympia Coach recently listed a Marathon XL with wood interior. This coach had a lot of non standard options for a Marathon. I don’t know the coach, but it is priced right.
-
John, are you looking for 40′ or is the Royale at Panterra an attractive price and you’d settle for 40 instead of 45′ ? You would have to get PPI and may need tires fairly soon. Where are you located and what is your price range ? “How old is old ?” is an interesting question. For the right bus in a given range the shell year has little to do with anything. In fact, when it comes to mileage, think the opposite of buying a car or light truck. Given the two busses you have mentioned, I would investigate the 2001 Royale 45′ at Parliament. Are you hung up on XL11 over an H ?
-
Opps…I thought you were looking at XLs. The coach at Panterra looks nice, mileage is a little high for a motorhome of that vintage, but nothing to be concerned with, if properly maintained. I really like the clean look of the XLII and other improvements. Personally, I would need reassurance it doesn’t have a delamination problem.
BTW, why a 40-footer? That is what I wass looking at, but none I would consider at the time. I’m now thankful I couldn’t find one. I feared a 45 would limit where we can stay. Although it does limit were we can stay, it has never been a issue. I’ve been from FL to AK and never faced a night without an adequate camp site.
BTW, Randy at Panterra and Brandon at Legacy are both first class guys.
-
We started out with 5th wheel trailer, then 3 class c motorhomes and now a 2008 Monaco Lapalma 34PPD. The Mrs. is concerned about the size of the coach prohibiting where we can get into and out of. It was a struggle to agree to a 40. A 45 is a stretch and she is not a fan of the H3.
Our Monaco has had slide problems from day one. Has been back to different Monaco dealers multiple times and is still not right. We have not extended it for two years. So going with a no slide coach was an easy choice. My wife’s parents also have a no slide Prevost Vantare.
Why the delamination concern? Where is the area that you are worried about? Is it a common problem with this model and or year?
-
Some XL-IIs, and I don’t have specifics, have exterior side panels that have come loose and leak. There has been two fixes. The first was replacing the adhesive. The second included rivets that were covered by strips, maybe 2″ wide, to hide the rivets.
-
Gil
Some great points. I have not heard of any early 2000 XLII coaches with delamination issues. I had that on my 2010 and was repaired. When did this start?
-
John, Have had 2 40′ and 2 45’s in the last decade and have never yet to find a place we could not get into. Five feet is worth its weight in gold when it comes to storage and livability. The de-lam issue on the XL11 and the “final fix” turning out to be not so final is what got us into an H. Good luck in your search. Geo
-
John, I was in your exact same position last year in our search…..needless to say I was OVERWHELMED!! I started looking at 40′ buses but ruled that out because of storage and the fact we would be living in the coach for 4-5 months each year and as a previous poster said….that extra 5′ is Gold. Other than a few state or national parks I’ve never had an issue getting into spots.
My comment about zeroing out the coach included many more items than I listed……a prevost inspection $750, I wish I found tires for $6K, mine where over $8K (316’s / 365’s) with balancing and installation. New batteries on the coach (4), chassis (2), dedicated generator battery (1). Oil and trans analysis, new belts on EVERYTHING, (along with a set of spare belts) new shocks, new air bags, new norgren valves. Misc push/ pull valves replaced with compression valves, new mother board for aqua hot along with service, genny service, jun-aire filters and service, air system service (prevost) both main and auxiliary, complete chassis service (prevost), fresh water filters, pump filters and service/inspection to the water softner, ….I also paid for a PDI of all the house systems which uncovered items I might not have found for some time…. I’m sure I’m forgetting a few things.
My Royale did have “adequate” service records but I decided when I began this journey if I was buying an 8+ year old coach I built the zero out process in my budget (thanks to the folks who recommended it here) for peace of mind and to hopefully eliminate the bulk of issues that may come up on an older coach. Not all but MOST.
I too called the guys at Royale Phoenix when I narrowed it down to 2 Royale’s…they knew both coaches and discussed with me all the maintenance THEY knew was done on each coach. They also had all the schematics on my coach.
I’m a big believer in maintenance records. On my previous 6 coaches, I kept impecable records from the day I drove the new rigs off the dealer lot (I bought them all new). When it came time to sell, the buyers all said they chose my coach because A. they liked it and the layout and B. because it was obvious that I had a paper trail for all maintenance, punch list items and visits to the dealer for minor fixes. Did it get me more $$, probably not but it did make for a quick sale once I found the buyer looking for that type of coach. Having this information in a nice tabed binder is a great sales tool.
As you are probably aware, Royale was built by Monaco Coach. I’m not one of those folks who worry about “orphan” coaches because with our busses there are many, many qualified folks who can work on the house systems AND Royale Phoenix is right in Elkhart. Also, Royale’s are known for their “ease of use and simplicity” which is exactly what I was looking for in my FIRST prevost. The chassis is basically the same no matter what manufacturer converted the house. So a CC or Royale sits on the same skeleton as a Liberty or Marathon just fewer bells and whistles like air doors inside, copper piping vs. pex ect…..bottom line I drove a liberty (older vintage because of price) a marathon, Royale and a country coach. They all drove pretty much the same and so, so much better than my old fiberglass coaches. Good power, silent ride, no rattles inside and the build quality of the house part where great on all the coaches. Even though it can stress you out a bit, enjoy the process of elimination and get what works for you.
-
All good advice. Start first with a budget. We cannot help you with that. But if you choose to share that amount a lot of the answers can be much more specific because at one time all owners were buyers, and of the owners quite a few have been multiple buyers.
Then determine how you intend to use the coach. If you are a power pole to power pole user the coach you will find best for your needs is going to be different than if you like to do a lot of dry camping. If you intend to do a lot of travel as opposed to spending weeks at a time at an RV resort your needs will be different.
If your budget affords it there is no doubt a 45 foot coach with a Series 60 or the Volvo (if buying a very late model) should be a priority, although with current pricing XL coaches, 40 footers with the 8V92 represent about the best value in motorhomes today because the prices are nowhere near their true value.
The market has clearly favored slides. If they can be afforded you will not regret having them. But they do add complexity, they will require maintenance. In my mind I have allowed a budget figure of $1000 per year to take care of slides, but what I really expect is at some point in the future I will spend $5000 all at once for slide seal replacement.
XLII coaches in some cases have had issues with skin delamination. The best way to handle that on a coach that has not had the current repairs is to take it to Prevost for evaluation, and if repairs are needed negotiate the costs with the seller. Prevost has been repairing almost all coaches that have had issues at their expense (which has been considerable) and the owner has had to pay for the needed paint work. Not all coaches need or will need repairs.
Don’t worry about “orphans” except be aware some have the potential to cost some serious money for upgrades or repairs in the future, but in almost every case the purchase price already reflects the risk so you really will not get hurt.
Nobody has mentioned Millennium as a good potental source, nor Parliament. Both are alive and well and produce good coaches. Your analysis of how you intend to use the coach may actually point you to one of their coaches.
Colors and decor are important, but do not be guided solely by them. Obviously you have to like how your coach looks, but place a very high priority on condition before colors and decor become part of the decision. Do look at as many coaches as you possibly can. It will not take long before your gut will tell you which coach you want, especially if you have been doing your homework.
While Gil can almost always be counted on for good advice, he and I are going to be on different sides of some maintenance issues. While he is correct about entertainer coaches going 500,000 miles without changing air bags as an example, be aware that as coaches reach the 10 year mark a lot of the components that rely on rubber are going to show their age and replacement might be advised. At the mileage Gil uses in his example the air bags, brake chambers, Norgren suspension valves are all 5 or 6 years old and have been exercised regularly which keeps them in good shape. The same components on our coaches may never see 500,000 miles because they aged out long before then.
-
John,
If you’re thinking XLII, read all you can about delam and regardless what anyone tells you, the only way to determine if it has a panel problem is an inspection by Prevost.
Here’s a good thread about delam: Delam
-
John,
Have you looked at the coaches here on our site? There are 138 for sale including the Royale you’re talking about:
-
One comment I would like to add as a result of some recent conversations with new buyers.
You and only you as a buyer have the obligation to verify a coach’s condition. The full burden you have as a buyer is to do all the necessary inspections to satisfy yourself that the coach condition is acceptible to you. As a new potential owner that seems daunting but you can rely heavily on professionals to assist you. For example Prevost can do a detailed mechanical inspection. (You should be there) They can also inspect for skin delamination.
Detroit and Allison can give you a reading of the codes and condition of your engine and transmission.
A converter can inspect the house portion of the coach.
But YOU can also play a large role in the inspection process by making sure you can have access to the coach and even live in it for a day or two while you operate every switch, knob and system. That is not only an inspection, but becomes a part of your training.
I am not going to suggest all sellers are dishonest, but some are. Some will lie. Not little fibs, but big lies. I am sure some of our members can share some of the lies, but a few stand out in my mind. I know of one test drive in which the buyer asked about the constantly cycling air system gauges. The seller’s response was that is normal, they all do that. What was going on was the emergency brakes had a chamber with a bad diaphragm and the coach wasn’t too many miles away from brake lockup.
I heard a seller tell a buyer he had just put all brand new tires on the coach. When enough tire dressing was scraped off the date codes it was seen the tires were actually 10 years old.
You will hear phrases such as “maintained by Prevost”. That could mean the seller just had Prevost put air in the tires.
As a buyer if a seller says all maintenance has been done but there are no records available you can assume nothing has been maintained. The burden on the seller is to prove a coach has been properly serviced and if the seller is unable you should assume you are going to have to change every fluid, filter, belt and possibly tires, batteries, air bags, brake chambers, Norgren valves, etc. A great looking coach does not necessarily mean it was serviced.
Remember that as a buyer the full burden is on you to insure your new coach is everything you expect it to be.
-
I think it would be hard to know what’s been done with out records , when I sold my royale the guy knew it was top shape because I replaced just about everything on the coach , if the coach is driven on a regular basis it will be much easier to tell what might have been done not so easy to tell when it has sat around not moving
Log in to reply.