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Lithium Ion Drop in Batteries
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I haven’t even gotten time to address your previous post but this is what I’m talking about with inaccurate information. Out of 3 assertions – 2 are incorrect. Maybe you are required to try to drive relion sales up or whatever. But it sounds like an awful lot of sales speak when it’s that inaccurate. You asked to be direct. Well here it is :
jon says : “Victron will not allow series connections”
Victron makes 12,24 (and even 48v before ) lithium batteries. And they can be series and parallel connected. Victron link here proving this :
https://www.victronenergy.com/batteries/lithium-battery-12-8vjon says “Relion is the only drop in option for almost all Prevost conversions.”
seriously ? The market is littered with companies providing 8d lithium batteries
lithionics 8d – https://lithionicsbattery.com/product/12v-330ah-8d-module/
lifeblue – http://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-lithium-ion-batteries/300ah-lithium-battery.html
Lithium battery co – https://www.lithiumbatterypower.com/products/copy-of-12v-300ah-lithium-ion-battery-group-8d
kilovault – https://kilovault.com/kilovault-serie-hlx-2/?lang=en
Nexgen – https://nexgenbattery.com/shop/batteries/12v-300ah/
That’s off the top of my head just for 8d lithium’s, there are a ton more and even more at other sizes that fit in to 8d spaces And all the above can be serial or parallel connected. To say relion is the only choice just isn’t true- maybe the only one sold by Tom or maybe the only one based out of Charlotte NC or maybe your choice but seriously – I have no $$$ in this but sorry this just isn’t true.
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Let’s stop the point to counter point bickering and move ahead with the positive aspects of Lithium.
I have taken on the Lithium business because I realize lead acid is no longer the standard and if I don’t add that product line to my battery business, I will be left in the dust at some point. The Lithium concept isn’t new to me, but applying that technology to the various coach configurations has a lot of variable. I’m learning, not a Lifepo4 expert and will certainly make mistakes.
Jon got exposed to Relion by me yakking about my need to add Lithium to my business, or go sit on the porch with the little dogs. He helped me with my booth at the show and we both drank from the fire hose while spending 2 days with Relion. He was so impressed with Lithium he decided to upgrade his Liberty to Relion. He’s now sharing that install information and attempting to help people better understand what we know is coming. I’m not familiar with anyone else who has tackled this upgrade for an AGM 24v Liberty. Yes I understand Liberty has used Lithium as OEM since around 2008.
Anthem, you obviously have hands on Lithium experience and I assume are a proponent of converting from AGM. You had a less than happy Relion experience and we all understand that. What we need going forward is input about the advantages of Lithium and how the upgrade may or may not be the best choice of certain coach owners regardless who the battery manufacturer may be.
So let’s change the tone here boys and move forward.
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I would say smart choice on taking on lithium. I think lead acid will soon be surpassed. And honestly relion isn’t a bad choice.
for those who /always) go pole to pole – I’m not sure lithium will ever make sense. Agm prices pricing can be pretty low on some and you might just be better off using agm and replacing every few years. You will never recover the costs of lithium with that use case.
i think it’s great for rv and boat use. I think it changes the game dramatically.
I am a firm believer in doing it safely and doing it right. I think the battery guys are trying to sell you a bill of goods to get away with their batteries being sold. I think they use and tout their bms systems that will save you battery – but they don’t tell you, you might fry the diodes in your alternator. But hey – they aren’t responsible for that.
So I think people need to throw out their entire thinking of batteries as it’s different. It has temp issues. It doesn’t like to be held full. It has no resistance in it and just needs to be stopped when done. It’s just different is the easiest way to think about it.
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Thanks Tom
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Would be nice if Relion themselves would step in here . I recall a thread on pulling a trailer Prevost stepped in and pretty much ended the conversation when they said , ” we build a bus to carry 55 people , if you want to pull a trailer buy a truck ” . No doubt drop in does sound like plug and play . So until there is a drop in for 4D I will continue to be a AGM buyer .
Also want to thank Jon and Tom for not locking down this thread as we are all learning from it .
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I believe life blue makes a 4d sized lifepo4 battery.
relion used to step in to some discussion boards back in the day. They have not in more recent years. My guess is that because they are making a “drop in” and all the so called advantages of drop in necessitates them taking some liberties with marketing to sell the battery. They know the underlying technology of the drop in is the same as the individual cells being bonded together (similar to say people using 6v cells to get to 12/24/48v (or the fact that batteries have 3x 2v cells to get to 6) systems.
Exact same concept along with some additional bms circuitry to cut off high and low as a last resort. But a mocked up cells and bms combo does the same. but they have to dance around a bit because of their limitations. But that’s my opinion only.
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There are some interesting scenarios with BMS controlled Li-Ion systems.
What happens if the BMS in a battery decides it reached full charge and cuts off the battery? There would be a voltage spike in the system. It may not damage the alternator diodes as long as there are still DC loads connected. But sensitive loads may not enjoy the spike.
Since the BMS’s in drop in Li-Ion do not talk to each other, batteries will go off-line at slightly different times depending on their individual charge situation. This should help limit the voltage spike.
With none of the batteries connected, alternator voltage may become unstable as loads turn on and off. (The batteries act as a huge capacitor while connected, keeping the voltage stable).
It would be interesting to connect a cheap logging voltage monitor to see what happens when the batteries decide they are full but you are going down the highway turning DC loads on/off.
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And that is exactly one of the issues regarding alternator safety I keep mentioning. Ironically, if you look at the relion documentation, it even says that. the BMS will protect the battery, but that immediate disconnection will/could damage the alternator. They mention it, but obviously its something they prefer to not enphasize as that takes away from its “Drop in” nature. But unless you wire in a AGM/LA battery inline to take that spike when it happens, you run the risk of blowing diodes in your alternator. Imagine 100+ amps being fed to the battery, the BMS disconnects, where does that current go ? the alternator will suffer damage.
And that doesnt even assume the BMS going off line at different times. But many good intelligent BMS will talk to each other. not sure about the relion, but Victrons, Lithionics, Mastervolt bms units in serial/parallel all talk to each other.
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A member with brand new Lifeline AGM batteries (5 of them) destroyed his batteries and to an extent his coach house wiring. The apparent cause was a failed voltage regulator.
The point is that shit happens and it may have a different stink depending on the coach, type of batteries, etc. but malfuncts are a potential and there is no system or batteries or components that will provide 100% protection.
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Lets remove the “failure’ aspect that the “shit happens” – because you are right, lightning could hit, or you could vibrate off a neutral and all hell could break loose. We all recognize that any of us could blow a cylinder on our engine and be on the hook for $$$$.
But under the normal course of using a “drop in” type of battery – if you dont account for some of the things it is sensitive to – things will happen that are NOT part of the shit happens. As in this will happen over and over and over again. Here are Relion’s installation directions, and they tend to gloss over what they dont really want to bring to attention – but its there.
Notice the alternator discussion. A regulator doesnt protect the alternator – unless you can remotely disconnect the field wire (or at the worst the B+ wire) BEFORE the BMS disconnects from the circuit (assuming you dont have a lead acidAGM battery in line). They mention quality of alternator, but it really comes down to BMS disconnections.
They also give you a Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Voltage. Now, why would they give you that (along with charge voltages) and such if they have a BMS that will protect their battery ? Thats actually printed in the normal specs of the battery. . . I mean they print this low voltage disconnect voltage which is a 3 volts higher than their disconnect voltage. Is this something a potential user of their battery should follow ? I would say yes. or maybe they are just printing it for no real reason and people can choose to follow or not follow.
Now, Jon its entirely possible you told them you NEVER discharge below that limit – and are always at or above the 50% mark. So they gloss that over saying you dont have to have a LVD because you will never be below that level. But the reality is that things happen where batteries get drawn down.
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Liberty does have a lead acid battery in line. It has the chassis batteries and the generator batteries.
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I mean in line between the alternator and the lithium bank. Not just inline or online. An easy way to save the alternator is to have the LA battery connected to the alternator (via a fet/diode ) in-line with the lithium batteries.
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This Precision BIM seems like a good option for those with chassis and house charging off the alternator. My Renegade has one, but it’s the non Lithium version.
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Something similar. That one conceptually does the job but it’s based on time and not charge. If you were trying to charge your house bank and you were sat down 600 amp hours, and your alternator was a 150amp alt – feeding around 100, it would only charge it 1/6 or the way up and stop. I think you would be better off with something being held in – line and then hvd cutoff when it hits the right voltage part (namely around 14.2V).
many units available – sterling makes them, Victron makes multiple lines of them (cyrex li and argofet), renogy makes one
The point is that that is the easiest/safest way to protect your alternator from a bms cutoff with the alternator putting out a full load
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