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Installing New House Batteries
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DKO,
Where are you? It might be possible if you are near another member of PC that you might be able to get help or advice on where to get help. Apart from any risk of hurting yourself from electric or the weight of batteries there is a real risk associated with improperly set up inverters.
Our batteries are very important and expensive so we all want them to last. The surest way to shorten their life is to not charge them according to the manufacturer’s instructions. My batteries have always come with very specific charging instructions. Those are the only instructions you should follow with regard to setting up your inverters. Other information should be viewed as general instructions. Helpful, but not the final word.
Setting up your inverters is not usually a difficult task. Sometimes the instructions can be intimidating, but if you take the time to understand how it is done you are actually going to appreciate the ability to set them up for how you are using your coach. The options available to you in setting up the inverters will often enable you tailor the inverters for the conditions such as dry camping or shore power or limited power.
I predict when you are done with this project you will be able to help folks that will have similar questions. Just keep in mind that my Liberty or Truk’s Royale or Al’s Marathon are all set up different from yours and likely different from one another’s so any advice any of us provides has to be qualified as to specifically which coach is applicable.
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DKO,
I just read some of the comments and your remarks on the BCM site. Keep in mind two very important things. Someone responding with their knowledge based on a Liberty is not necessarily recognizing the differences between your Vantare and their Liberty. Two different converters with two different ways of installing and using the batteries.
As to your comment about installing fewer batteries because you go from shore power to shore power, give a lot of thought to that. 100% of your coach goes through your inverters if I understand Vantare correctly. Your electrical system doesn’t shed load when you are not connected. If there ever comes a day when you cannot access shore power or choose to not run a generator you will thank your lucky stars you have the battery capacity you now have. Our converters have all done a very good job of designing our coaches and their systems for almost all situations.
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Based on the picture of your charged settings you have a 24 volt
system. That means your cabling will be series/parallel and if there
are any 12 volt leads from the battery bank you will have an
equalizer that must have the ground cable unhooked before you do
anything.Caution – You could easily harm yourself or destroy your new “no
name” batteries by a cable or connection error. If you have any
doubt, get qualified experienced help. I’m reluctant to offer any advice since
I have no experience with Vantare. -
I was just viewing your pictures and it looks like the panel next to your battery door should be removable… all our panels in our bays unscrew for “easier” access…even the ceiling ones… looks like your batteries of concern are on the right end so you should be able to access them through that next panel even though there is a narrow post there? Is that a possibility?
I wish that were the case. I mentioned earlier about that panel being an obstacle. It has a wall on the opposite side that can not be removed from this side.
Where are you?
I am in Miami, Oklahoma this week. I am in Weir, Kansas next week.
As to your comment about installing fewer batteries because you go from shore power to shore power, give a lot of thought to that. 100% of your coach goes through your inverters if I understand Vantare correctly. Your electrical system doesn’t shed load when you are not connected. If there ever comes a day when you cannot access shore power or choose to not run a generator you will thank your lucky stars you have the battery capacity you now have. Our converters have all done a very good job of designing our coaches and their systems for almost all situations.
I understand what you are saying. That is the reason I am replacing all eight batteries this time. I intend to understand this better in the next five years so I can completely rewire it all the next time if necessary. I do not use battery power except going down the road. I know I would have to understand and change the way Vantare designed and wired it in order to make ANY changes. I appreciate the note of caution.
Based on the picture of your charged settings you have a 24 volt system. That means your cabling will be series/parallel and if there are any 12 volt leads from the battery bank you will have an equalizer that must have the ground cable unhooked before you do anything.
The positives from some batteries are connected to the negatives in others so I thought that meant it was wired for 24 volts but I wasn’t sure. If it has an equalizer it must be hidden back with the two hard to reach batteries. I can not access that with out removing the first six batteries. Any ideas on that?
I want you all to know I appreciate your help and guidance. I do understand that everybody comes from a different perspective, background and motivation. I realize that some that offer advice do not even clearly read the post or the answers but I am thankful there are places I can go and ask questions.
Thanks again very much. I am still not clear on just what needs to be reprogramed on the inverters but I will keep asking questions until I have a grasp of it. I certainly do not want to ruin my batteries. That is for certain.
DKO
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Truk4u, when you posted the boys and girls I have to high five Diane’s post on setting up the inverter.
Way to go Diane jumping right in with a knowledgeable post…….. I for one was impressed.
AL
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DKO…
Just one last thought on that inside panel… after you remove the exterior panels try to slide that inside panel… I just remembered that several of mine slide out of the way… may also have velcro holding it to keep it from sliding… once you remove the exterior one… be a a little agressive as I’m sure it will move one way or another… as I mentioned before all our interior panels a fairly easily removed… just study it a bit first…. I’m sure it will remove… probably slide to the side. Hope so anyway…. hardest part for me is being inside the bay with 2 artificial knees… now that hurts!
Good luck.
Diane
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DKO some thoughts from another Vantare owner.
1. The nomenclature for the SW4024 inverter name is
40 = 4000 VA or 4 kVA continuous output inverter.
24 – = 24 V DC nominal voltage. (I.e., 24 volt house system)
These inverters only came as a SW 4024 and an SW 4048
An option which will make you wonder when you read the manuals is “Stacking” of two inverters. This is a feature to combine 2 inverters into a single functioning unit (a simplistic explanation at best). Vantare’ did not stack these inverters and that’s that.
Note, this does not mean that your house batteries do not supply 12V DC to some devices. Mine do. I am very certain that yours do as well.
2. Once you remove your batteries, you may still have power to many items, however, you will have almost no control of anything in your coach because you will have no power to any of the control panels. So, you need to make sure that you set things like window shades, pocket doors, fantastic fan vents, etc before you yank the batteries.
3. In all your documentation, do you have the package of house wiring diagrams? You might see something called a “bicolor board” which is the board on which all your control relays are located. [[If you don’t have the package, I will be happy to send them to you. The set applies to nearly all coaches which have the biclor board. ]] When you disconnect the batteries, there will be no power to this board, thus no controls what so ever.
4. Buy plenty of tape. I wrapped all my tools with electrical tape so not to weld anything. I use duct tape to insulate all the openings.
5. Looking at your pictures, 3 things jump out at me.
a. there are angle lips in front of your batteries. I suspect that these can be unbolted so you won’t have to lift over them. (I found this out ONLY AFTER I wrestled the batteries out.)
b. Best as my peepers will work, you appear to have a shock mat under your batteries, GOOD! If not, add it during the re-install. Vibration is a killer for AGM’s and almost all batteries.
c. Do you have any kind of battery hold down? I didn’t/don’t but will before I finish re-installing. Again, vibration is a battery killer. If you don’t have a hold down, you should probably add it.
6. It is my opinion that you can operate a Vantare’ on less than (in my case) 8 4D batteries. That is especially so the way you describe your use. Now having said that, some other thoughts:
a. You need to always have generator auto start activated. (This is now SOP for me).
b. You may want to up the low voltage condition threshold settings in the inverters by a couple of tenths of a volt.
c. You will probably want to stay in “search” mode on these inverters at least while on the road. You may have to fool with the settings on that in order to have a manageable environment as newer electronics seem to create challenges for these inverters.
d. I would probably go with no less than 4. And make sure that you balance them, i.e., place 2 on each string.
e. Tape off any unused terminal connectors.
7. In the inverter manual, there are pages which illustrate the menu system. It is a total of about three or four pages. I found it very helpful to copy these and keep them updated with notes as to changes I make on my settings, AND NEAR THE INVERTERS. It is a lot easier than having to go dig out the entire manual. One additional data type which you can add there are the phone numbers of your inverter support network, as I have found that almost no one has internet access when an inverter problem occurs. (I suspect it is a derrivative of Murphy’s Law).
8. In case you didn’t know, if you ever powered down the inverters (like tripped the breaker on the front of the inverter), you need to reprogram them or the tripped inverter as they will always return to factory default.
9. Send me an email and I will get you a phone number. You have an open offer for help, wish I were closer.
10. Back to batteries for a second, check all the terminal clamps. Replace anything that does not look “right”. ( “Right” = no one can tell you exactly what “right” is, but most know it when they don’t see it!).
– Terminal connector and post brush, get one, use it.
– A terminal prreservative, e.g., dielectric grease battery terminal spray, something that does not cure/harden.
– Lumbar belt, get one, use it.
– Hard shell knee pads and good gloves, get some use them.
– A gambrel and rope hoist might be of value to you as well. I use one of these to hoist my 4D’s in and out of the coach and in and out of my truck and garage. It might save your back…… just saying.
Gammbrel and rope pulley hoist
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Thanks Dianne for the tips on the panels down in the bays. I will be investigating in the morning.
Sawdust, You have given me a lot of great information. Sunday is a busy day for me (I am an evangelist and conducting a tent revival this week too) so I will work on digesting it later tonight. I am sure I will be contacting you. Thank you so much for posting. I plan to change these Wednesday so I have a couple of days to pull it all together.
God bless,
DKO
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One more important item. While you are in there dealing with the batteries and have everything powered down, it is a good time to check all the connections on the inverters. Those inverter connections can cause you a lot of problems and drive you nutz in the process.
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OK, thanks to you all I am making some progress.
Unfortunately, Diane the panel to the right of this battery rack does not remove at all.
The equalizer and several big lugs are mounted on the back side of it. Howerver you did make me curious about this wall in bay 2.
The wall behind these vent fans and between the inverter and the aquahot took some convincing and prodding but it eventually came out. It didn’t give me much room but it did give me access.
After the picture above I was able to remove the wall at the end of the batteries and then I removed the aquahot cover on the right to give my shoulders some room to squeeze in. I removed all the lips and brackets that hold the batteries in and the Xbracing from the battery rack.
I have diagrammed everything and taken a picture of every battery post. Every wire is labeled clearly. My tools are in place and I have plenty of tape and dielectric grease. Once I receive the charging specs and Ed helps me understand them I should be good to go.
I hope to make the change on Wednesday by God’s grace.
Thanks again… Anything else?
DKO
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I need to replace the 12 volt heat exhaust fans too. Anybody know the best place to buy? I would like the quietest, most powerful and also the one the draws the fewest amps, of course…
There is a Locke electrical supply near me this week so that may be an option. I could button it all up this week with the batteries.
I also see several on ebay but I like to buy on good recommendation if possible.
THIS looks good to me…
Specifications
- Approvals: CE
- Dimensions (H x W x D): 76 x 127 x 81 (mm)
- ElectricalCharacteristics: 2.9 Amp
- Flow Rate (US gallons & litres): 135 CFM at Open Flow
- Fuse Size: 4 (amp)
- Product Inlet Fitting: 3 (76 mm) Ducting
- Product Outlet Fitting: 3 (76 mm) Ducting
- Voltage: 13.6 (Vdc)
DKO
- Approvals: CE
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I heard back from the distributor this afternoon concerning the charging specs. They do not have a clue. They have a large network of dealers but harldy ever sell AGM batteries. He said their AGMs are Deka batteries by East Penn.
I looked up Deka AGMs and every one I found is black on the side. These new ones I have are gray on the side like the Lifelines that I am replacing. Should I call them back? Does Deka make a 4D AGM that is gray?Never mind…. I found gray ones online…
Can the charging specs be found with this information?
I was beginning to feel like I could do this….
Here is a LINK to a pdf about their AGMs
DKO
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That is a good link and the charging specs are near the end. They are very explicit. Unless you have a temperature sensor I would go with the 80 degree charging voltages and stay to the low side.
Just a comment not to be confused with criticizm of Deka or a sales pitch for Lifeline. On another site a long time ago there was a discussion of one manufacturer’s battery versus another. The concensus was the Deka is a lighter battery in weight versus the Lifeline and the owners who reported seemed to agree they averaged about a year longer service life with the Lifeline. In another discussion lead acid batteries were discussed as having the greatest tolerance for abuse, possibly the longest life if maintained, but the time required to properly maintain them (adding water as required) outweighed any benefits.
Regardless of the batteries selected, charging them exactly as called for by the manufacturer, and limiting the depth of discharge had the greatest beneficial impact on their life. The point being, if you rely on generator autostart, when you program the inverters, if they control the generator start use a 50% discharge rather than going deeper such as 80%.
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DKO,
I hope you get good service out of the Deka’s and I’m sure you bought them right. I didn’t have much success out of the 8D’s I had, they failed before 3 years and were maintained properly. Check the warranty, it’s either 12 or 24 months.
Some try to compare Deka’s with Liflelines and it is not apples to apples. I’m obviously biased towards Lifeline and the 5 year warranty is a proven benefit. I have handled one 6v battery warranty in the years I have been dealing with them. One of our fellow Prevost owners was having trouble with his Lifelines and much to his surprise, we discovered he had purchased old stock 3 years prior by a less than honest repair facitlity that I won’t name. I got Lifeline involved and they sent him 6 new 8D’s, at no cost. It wasn’t their fault, but they stepped up anyway.
I hope your installation goes well.
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Thank you for all of the help, advice and encouragement you have offered me in this post. I appreciate it very much. These inverters have had stumped me but Ed has helped me a bunch with that today.
I found this tucked away in a file today. It was dated February 1998 and was from Trevor at Vantare Service. Matches the order Ed gave me with the exception of turning off the AC breaker and unplugging the shore power. I guess they assumed that one. You guys were right on.
This note may have been transcribed from a recorded phone conversation. The original owners left several pages of notes like that. This one doesn’t say.
February 1998 was only 25 months after this coach was originally delivered. If they were having trouble with batteries at that point they sure did not receive good service from those batteries. I wonder what brand was installed in these new in 95/96?
I know the second owner replaced the batteries in spring of 2002. I have that work order and receipt.
I plan to start about 5:30 Wednesday morning if nothing prevents me. It is only supposed to be 101 in the afternoon. If anybody is near Miami, Oklahoma and feeling particularly frisky you are welcome to come by. We will have plenty of cold water and a lawn chair for you to sit and offer advice. I am sure we will have some lunch too!Thanks again for your help and all of the information.
DKO
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