[Thomas]

Glenn,

You ask a hard question because there are too many things that can affect the answer. I have sold two coaches and bought three. In every purchase I owned the coach before we lived in it, but with variables.

When we bought the first coach the owner allowed us to take it to a nearby converter to do the pre-purchase inspection. We were newbies so I had to rely on an expert which was Don Hoffman of Hoffman Coach. Don and his wife went over the coach exactly as I described by starting at one point and systematically going through the entire coach, checking and operating everything. Don and I concentrated on the mechanical aspects, and his wife Margaret and my wife went through everything relating to using and living in the coach, We were buying the coach as-is so before we closed on the purchase we needed this inspection. The coach had only been in use for about 21 months so we did not expect surprises and there were none.

The second coach was bought at a dealer. I was significantly more experienced by the time we bought it so I did the inspection, including having the dealer back it over the pit in my garage so I could get under it and complete the inspection. The dealer was local so inspecting it was very convenient. If the dealer was a long distance away I would have hired someone or rented space over a pit. We did not have to live in that one because our second coach was so similar to our first. I don’t know if we would have been allowed to live in it. Never asked.

When we bought our current coach it was as though we were newbies again because the systems were so new to us and the chassis was also unlike our two previous coaches. The good news is we bought the coach from Liberty and they not only spent as much time with us teaching and allowing me to inspect the coach, but they also took care of everything we found needed attention. That purchase was literally the easiest because I knew I could rely on Liberty as the converter to not only be able to answer every question accurately, but I knew I could mess up and overlook something and they were still going to make it right. We did live in the coach for two nights and in our case it was important. We knew up front that was how it was going to be.

Bottom line, whether you live in the coach or not depends on how you and the seller agree on the purchase process. I tried to do everything the buyer of my previous coach needed to learn the coach and feel comfortable with the purchase. I would have allowed him and his wife to stay in the coach because they needed to learn the coach and needed to satisfy themselves there were no surprises. It is my opinion any seller should be willing to do what you feel is necessary for you to be satisfied the coach is as it is represented.

In the case of my first coach the seller was a widow and she really did not know the coach. I did not feel she could assist in our training or inspection. In the case of the purchase from the dealer our situation had changed so I assumed the responsibility although when we picked up the coach we found the dealer replacing an antenna that they found was inop and they took it upon themselves to replace it. I was please to see that because it was not something we checked. TV isn’t that important to us so I never took the time to check it.

If a seller resists giving you the opportunity to verify the coach is exactly as it has been represented I think you have good reason to walk away. There are far too many ways for a buyer to be exposed to large unexpected expenses and a buyer needs to know about them prior to buying the coach. I would not buy a coach unless I could do an inspection that satisfies me. If a seller resists it just tells me there is something to hide. A seller should be proud to show everything, and if reluctant something is not right. The seller should not be expected to eat the cost of any inspection, and before I let someone live in my coach I would want to be assured they are serious buyers. There are a lot of tire kickers out there so if a seller is wary you may have to prove your intent.

[Terry]

Hi,

I spent a couple of years researching buses before
purchasing my Liberty. Like most of you that have followed Jon’s advice on this
site, his wealth of knowledge (and others here too) has proven invaluable
to me. I took Jon’s “check-list” and my limited knowledge of these complicated machines and having never
owned a Prevost before, was able to find a mechanically sound and beautiful bus.
Not that I could know everything about it at the time, but I knew enough, and that was the
key. I approached it like a student and I still do. But I believe that this purchase would have been
considerably more risky for me if not for Jon’s pre-inspection
“check-list”. Of course, I had Prevost
do a PDI before purchasing as well (another one of Jon’s suggestions) and that gave me a chance to check out the undebelly of the bus too. It was a daunting feeling walking under a 22 ton vehicle, but I knew it was one of the important steps. I also knew enough that if something looked wrong or was broken to ask questions and
get it fixed, if necessary, before I took the big plunge. The guy who sold me the coach said that even as an
experienced owner/seller and long time Prevost owner himself that he had never seen any one
do such an extensive examination before me. Then, looking down at my clipboard
and “my” 18 page check list he asked me if I would get him “a copy”. Of
course I did but as you know it was just a copy/extension of Jon’s list. I
think (I’m pretty sure anyway) I told him that!

I know first hand how important it is to do your research
and study as much as you can before writing that check! I will
always feel indebted to this and othere sites and to Jon,
Tom and everybody else here for all the information I’ve learned over the
years.

Yours in MPD!

Fred

[Davy]

Fred, Thanks for the kind words. My checklist for purchasing has not been universally received because buyers who were using it were making it difficult for some sellers. But in the long run we all benefit.

When we bought our first coach as newbies we not only did not know a soul that owned a Prevost that we could talk to and learn from, but there was no internet or forums as we have and use today. We now have an entire marketplace that is better aware of how to inspect and purchase a coach and we as owners all benefit because the bar has been raised. And those sellers who have responded to the marketplace’s expectations are excellent. We all win.

We know exactly what it is like when something is wrong and there is nobody to turn to or no resource available for information and help. It is not fun. So now all of you who can benefit from a site like Prevost Community can share. It will be your way to pay forward. Answer questions. Post your experiences, Help others who might be in trouble and maybe just need the encouragement of knowing that sound when they turn the steering wheel is normal.

Tom and I are still developing the site (actually we are not, but we have a great web guru) and while we have been extraordinarily protective of the personal information of our registered members, we might be able to figure a way you can list contact information so you can hook up with others for help, advice, to get questions answered, or just to meet and have dinner. Our problem is we do not want ANYBODY who is not entitled to the information to ever get that information.

[Don]

Thanks for your response Jon.

I have a couple more queries.

Please forgive the complexity of this first one-

In your PDI article you mentioned having the coach computers read by a code reader. My concern is with the possibility that fault code(s) will not get picked up by the code reader because the seller of the coach had any persistant fault codes erased from the coaches computer.

For example, a fault triggering a Check Engine Light (CEL) in a car can easily be erased by an OBD II reader thus turning off the CEL. If the engine trouble is not fixed the fault will again illuminate the CEL, but ONLY after the car has been driven through a “cycle” of various driving conditions. Unfortunatally, this cycle can require the car to be driven many miles before the CEL comes back on. This can mask any potential engine trouble from a prospective buyer of the car in this example.

I would not want to buy a coach and then 100 miles down the road get a CEL.

Question 1: Is there a way to protect the buyer of a used coach from the above example?

Second-

I have never riden in a Prevost and have no idea of what a good or bad coach would feel and sound like when the transmission shifts, engine revs up, Jake Brake in activated, when going over rough road, etc.

Question 2: Is it possible to hire someone to test drive a Prevost and help me with the PDI, and if so how would I go about finding someone?

Thanks again for your help.

Glenn

[Archived]

1. No

2. Yes

You have little protection against a dishonest seller. I am talking about someone who is very knowledgible about masking problems. Usually however there is no single clue a coach is just not right, but an accumulation of small clues. I doubt if there is a perfect coach because there are so many things that can go bad or need adustment or require maintenance. But a buyer who does a detailed inspection will see a lot of things that are going to point at the coach being a good one or a coach being one that is not so good. My 97 coach has in its recent history low coolant level codes because when I change coolant it is difficult to burp the cooling system and get it absolutely full the first time. I have to get it up to temperature to open the thermostats and while doing that I can drain coolant from the header tank. Is that a problem? No. But it could show up to a buyer as a problem. But taken in context and seeing the overall condition it is not likely to be a concern.

Is a persistent low oil pressure a problem after the coach warms up. You bet it is. So even if the seller has erased the code, a good test drive where all temps are up to normal should produce the code and the gauge indication to support the code. Don’t be shy about wanting to see the coach under all conditions. If I had any reservations about a coach I would look for the steepest longest hill in the area and watch temps and pressures like a hawk. Clearing codes won’t hide high temps and low pressures. When in doubt I would have Detroit Diesel and Allison give the engine and transmission a good check.

As to how a person with no experience can judge how a coach drives use sites such as this one to ask for help. Every vintage of coach has what is normal gauge readings. All of us that had coaches with the 8V92 know exactly where the coolant temperature should be on the gauge and that the oil pressure looks like it is too low at idle. We know on mid 90s XL coaches with the Prevost gauges that the three top gauges are all going to point straight up when things are normal. If you feel more comfortable with an experienced owner driving the coach to feel the shifts, determine how it handles, and who ask for a volunteer. Our members are all over the country. Someone is nearby.

I don’t want any of this to sound like there is a high percentage of defective conversions available for sale. A reading of the posts on all the internet forums will reveal very few of us have engine or transmission problems. Our drivetrains are robust and have a long life.

[Archived]

Thanks Jon for your thoughtful and informative responses. They are very helpful.

Spent the evening checking the internet for a DDEC scanner. A used Nexiq Pro Link on ebay goes for about $1200.

Anybody know of a more cost effective alternative to the Nexiq?

I read that an OBD 2 scanner can be used to read DDEC codes. Can anybody confirm this?

[jack]

You can flash the codes. I believe all our coaches have a means by which you can review active codes either by means of pressing certain buttons in the right sequence, or reading them via a message center, jumping two pins in the data reader port or some specific sequence of events. By flashing them they will present themselves in an audible and visual fashion. There will be a number of flashes or beeps a pause another number of flashes or beeps and a pause. It will be obvious what the code is. If there are multiple codes they will be separated sufficiently so you will know each one.

Until you stop the flashing the codes will just keep repeating over and over.

Each vintage coach has its own way of accessing the codes, but contacting Prevost should get you the information you need on the procedure. I did not have a reader for my first coach but by using a paper clip between two of the pins on the data port I was able to initiate the flashing which is on the CEL and SEL lights along with the audible alarm when those light.

An alternative is to see if you can borrow a reader. At rallies I have lent many people my reader for DDEC II and III which went with my coach when I sold it. I now have a reader for DDEC V, but I do not as yet have the necessary adapter, but when I do I will be keeping it in the coach.

I wouldn’t hesitate to use the services of the nearest Detroit Diesel dealer who is usually and Allison dealer. That way you can have the condition of each checked by a professional who works on them every day.

[Archived]

Looked at a ’98 H345 Vantare this weekend. 50k miles, clean Carefax, one owner.

Exterior walk around revealed areas that had been painted (mainly the passenger side engine cover panel). Two bay doors were not flush when fully closed (upper left corner of the rear engine bay door and the upper right corner of a side bay door-both about 3/4 inches off-enough that rain can get in). The side bay door seemed like it was warped as there was resistance when pushing in on the door to make it flush. The engine bay door seemed like all it needed was a latch ajustment. Sorry, I didn’t take photos. A couple of other bay doors when closed did not seem fully secured, meaning that I could push in on the bay door and it would slap up against the surrounding body paneling.

Interior walk through revealed two hairline cracks in the granite flooring. The cracks are both straight and go all the way across the floor left to right (not front to back) and are hardly noticable. A couple strips of Vitricore debonded from the cabinetry.

Good: other than the painted areas the paint was in good shape, minimal sun damage to plastic/rubber trim. All bays were in very clean like new condition. Engine, A/C compressor, alternater etc and bay were very clean-no signs of leaks or trouble.

Bad: color of driver/passenger seats and driver area trim-dark purple. (Would not be surprised if this coach was previously owned by Prince). Both indoor and outdoor entertainment center refrigerators need to be fixed/replaced.

Does any of the above issues hint at a bigger problem or potential future big problems?

Thanks.

[Archived]

Did you have that “eureka” moment as soon as you stepped in the coach?

If your list of defects above was what you found so far, do you really expect you know all the problems or do you have that little voice in your head that says some of this stuff says “structural”?

Sometimes price is more important than a handful of problems in making a decision, but based solely on your description I would be afraid.

[Edward & Sandy]

This was the first Prevost coach I’ve seen up close and personal.

Yes, my intuition was telling me structurally something isn’t right, but without a frame of reference to go by, I was not sure my observations where valid.

No, there was no “Eureka” moment when stepping into the coach-just dissapointment when looking at all that ghastly purple leather. I thought maybe I could warm up to the purple color….uh…no.

No doubt I was very impressed with what was right with the coach, but I’ll pass on this one.

Thanks again Jon.

[Davy]

Find the coach you really want., I mean as much as possible….exterior color, interior layout and colors-finishes,slide(s) or not etc. Do not be afraid of higher mileage especially if they have repair and maintainance logs. In fact, a 98 with 50,000 mi is too low, it peobably means the coach sat too much.

[Scott]

Hello again, we have an interest in a coach listed on Prevost Stuff.Com>

It is a 1999 Prevost Marathon Le Mirage XLV 45. I was unable to copy and paste add.

Does anyone have any kowledge or comments on this coach?

Thanks

Jim

[Archived]

Just a general comment……..before you buy make sure you have the coach you want. Is it equipped and layed out the way you want it? Think about how you will use the coach, especially if your usage is biased towards either of the two ends of the spectrum. Someone that dry camps a lot will have certain needs a person who goes from 50 amp shore power to 50 amp shore power will not have.

Once you are satisfied of the above and you have had the “eureka” moment, if you don’t feel comfortable doing the pre-purchase inspection take it to the professionals and make sure you are there right along side of them inspecting and learning every component, system and device.

There is no substitute for detailed proof of ongoing maintenance such as logs or records, and if you do not have them mentally adjust your offer to compensate for the fact you are going to have to bring all maintenance events up to date. Buying a coach is a serious expense, and the cost of coolant changes, Transynd changes, oil and filters, tires, batteries, shocks, air bags, etc. etc can be a very large adder to that expense.

The best ones to inspect it in FL would be Marathon. If they are selling it that might be even better because they can make it right and you may be able to negotiate some warranty on it.

[Archived]

Jim,

I would second the comments to have the PDI performed by Marathon. We looked at a 1999 Marathon several years ago and ended up passing because of the PDI performed by Marathon in Florida. They do a very thorough job and dont pull any punches with the condition. The coach wasn’t in bad shape but it had a long list of items that needed repair. Marathon can also give you an estimate on the cost to fix the deficient items. It will help you negotiate the appropriate purchase price taking into account what it will take to get the bus in top shape.

Good luck,

Loc

[Scott]

Anything Jon says is good advice.

My Liberty is at Marathon now for a couple small repairs. Nice people. We will see how the work turns out.