[John]

John, Here are some general observations.

Royale has always been considered a good honest coach. Its systems are reliable and it has been known for its attractive interiors, especially those of wood, when all other conversions were going with laminates.

That vintage coach has the bullet proof rivet construction, the most economical Series 60 engine, and the smooth shifting 6 speed Allison transmission. With a 40 foot chassis you can expect 8 miles per gallon and ample power to take the hills. I noticed it has the manual ZipDee awnings so consistent with the reliability of the rest of the coach you will not be fighting the air / electric later vintage ZipDees.

From the photos it looks very nice. You are correct in seeking its history. At the miles showing even a low level of maintenance is not likely to seriously impact the coach, but because it is 20 years old there are things you really need to make sure have not aged to the point where you have problems. The two items (besides tires and batteries) that leap out as being a concern are air bags and the associated Norgrens and brake chambers. Neither are going to break the bank or be show stoppers but can be good negotiating points.

But I have a concern. There is something wrong with the VIN. It is not correct and until you know what the actual VIN is you cannot run a car fax or the seller cannot get Prevost to supply a service history. With that model year the VIN is also going to tell if the coach is IFS or solid axle. That was the initial year of the IFS and I believe there were a lot of premature and expensive A arm replacements on that vintage.

Inspection? Easy……….If the coach is in Marion Ohio it is 7 hours from Vonore. Good luck convincing the dealer to let you drive it down. Your best bet would be to hammer hard for the service history and if it is not available consider it needs air bags, Norgrens, shocks, tires, batteries, brake chambers, coolant change, transmission fluid change, filters, belts, Aquahot service, etc. etc. which I would consider to be $20,000 worth of work.or more.

I would also do a vigorous search for the asking prices of 97 Vintage coaches to verify his price is consistent with the market, and treat the low miles as a detriment because they do not reflect good steady usage which is actually beneficial.

[Archived]

Jon,

Thanks for the quick response. I suspected there was something wrong with the VIN too. I have asked them to send a picture of it.

How can you tell if it is IFS from the VIN? I been using Prevost Maintenace Information Sheet Mi00-08 to decipher the VIN, but I do not see any info regarding the suspension. Is it just based on the year?

Since Terri and I have already graduated from Know Your Prevost II, if we atttend again will it count towards Grad school credits?

[Archived]

Tenth vin digit letter is year Last four for indicating first IFS is 5873. So as prevost identifies all our coaches by tenth digit and last four of the vin

2000-Y

1999-X

1998-W

1997-V

1996-T

1995-S

1994-R

1993-P

1992-N

1991-M

1990-L

1989-K

John, the VIN listed on Jay’s website luxury coaches for sale isn’t the prevost vin. If you can get it or the Royale production number, then you can call Dan Jourdan at Royale Phoenix. He used to work at Royale and may have the build sheet. He has most of them

[Archived]

Thanks for the info. I sent an e-mail to Royale Phoenix to see if they could shed any light on this coach.

[Archived]

Grad school credits????? We who own a Prevost coach are all students so to discuss grad school might be premature.

Jim answered your IFS question. BTW, I would not let any one single issue such as the VIN be a show stopper, but the more the dealer drags his feet on the service history, and until the correct VIN is provided the less trust I would have in what the dealer says. And just because the seller is less than honest it still doesn’t become a deal killer, but it would make me want to dig very deep into the inspection.

I seriously doubt the dealer would allow you to take the coach anywhere for an inspection, but at the very least get a Detroit / Allison dealer to run the codes and diagnostics on the engine and transmission. Run the generator and all ACs. Verify the driver’s air works. Use an IR temperature gun to check differentials. Check date codes on tires and batteries. Make sure the refrigerator is working. Those are the big ticket items other than the undercarriage items and maintenance previously mentioned. If you can get it up in the air or over a pit look for cracking on the air bags, hub seal leaks, and drain the air tanks in succession. In a few hours of poking around you are going to have a pretty complete picture of the coach and its condition. If it looks as good as the photos it is a nice coach and the only thing you then need is to adjust the price based on what you have seen. Assume the worst and have the seller prove otherwise. After all, he is the one representing the coach as a good one.

[Per]

John

in Jay’s description it is stated this Royale has IFS

A few years ago, when this “lot” had a Beaver Prevost, getting any kind of info was more difficult than pulling teeth out of a chicken.

When I would call, and the response was , he’s really busy, he’s the one with the information. But persistence paid off, when the gal on the phone told me, “I’m not suppose to tell you, but here is the VIN of the Beaver Bus. Which then I concluded it was Bus 3

Dont be too surprised if info us parsed out

[Jim/Chris]

I’m puzzled why we keep reading that serious Prevost shoppers keep running into the same issues … difficulty getting information on battery and tire codes, difficulty in getting maintenance history, etc. when dealing with dealers. I wonder how many sales are lost because this information isn’t readily available to prospective buyers. Why should the VIN# be a secret?

I want to confirm what was previously stated that replacing fluids, belts, hoses, bags, break chambers, Norgren valves, and a few miscellaneous do-dads will cost at least $20,000 if done by a reputable, efficient shop that knows what its doing. Tires and both sets of batteries is about $10,000 … been there, done that.

[Gerald]

Thanks for all the responses and great information. We have been told the information is coming, but that they are

really busy. We have inquired about several coaches at different dealerships, and the information we usually

receive in the end is that the coach has been sold. Are people really buying a coach sight unseen with no info?

[Dawn]

John, not only are people buying coaches sight unseen, there are buyers that never take the time to do even a basic inspection or get training.

Dealers that get an occasional Prevost to sell, but that really don’t specialize in them aren’t prepared or equipped to help a buyer with an inspection or training so until a buyer stumbles across a site like PC they are overwhelmed.

I have spoken to a number of owners who bought buses over the internet, such as on ebay or because they thought if they didn’t commit to buy it sight unseen the “other” buyer would snatch it out from under them. I have gotten feedback from owners whose training and inspection consisted of a 1/2 hour drive, and when anything was questioned, such as fluctuating gauges the salesman told them “they all do that’.

If it is any consolation the dealers who end up with some Prevost conversions are as much in the dark as some buyers so they sometimes learn the hard way why an inspection is necessary.

[Dawn]

The pilots on this site, especially those that have owned their own planes understand and appreciate why maintenance records are important.

A Prevost coach is no less complex and there is no way to schedule needed maintenance without some record of maintenance work that has been performed. Some items have visible date codes, such as tires and batteries. But there are service items that have no way of determining if they are due or have been done. The lack of information puts the buyer in the difficult position of either assuming no maintenance was done, or believing a seller who is going to say the coach was well maintained. Usually well maintained to a salesman is the interior has been vacuumed and the tires have dressing on them.

I have never seen an ad that says a coach was not well maintained. I have seen a significant number of coaches for sale that have the claim “maintained by Prevost” or maintained by the converter. As soon as any seller makes the claim a coach is well maintained then the seller is in essence saying he has the documentation or is lying.

If a buyer has to assume maintenance has to be done because there are no records it starts to get very expensive very fast. Our transmissions require fluid and filter changes, and the Allison recommendation is the use of Transynd or equivalent. At my last change just the Transynd was over $40 per gallon and I needed 8 gallons. Add the price of filters and the time required for a shop to do the work and $500 is not unrealistic. It is likely a coolant change is going to cost a similar amount. By the time a new owner has changed all fluids and filters, and lubed the chassis, including the generator it is not unreasonable to expect a bill for at least a couple thousand dollars.

If there were maintenance records to show those items were current those dollars would not have to be spent immediately after the purchase.

On the vintage coach discussed on this thread it has brake chambers that have diaphragms that eventually tear and fail. There is no way to predict when a diaphragm will fail. The chambers themselves are relatively cheap unlike those on later models, so the easy way to prevent a trip disruption is to just change them to a schedule. If there are no records it is unknown if the chambers are relatively new or original equipment. The same can be said of air bags. Like brake chambers they age out, but the only way to know their age without records is to remove them and if the white Prevost tag is readable you can see their date.

Then there are the scary things. I know some 15 or more year old coaches that have never had their air dryer serviced or the cartridge replaced. I would really be concerned if there was no evidence of pneumatic system maintenance because if it was never maintained the buyer can be looking at some very serious and expensive repairs to the entire coach pneumatic system as a result of damage caused by moisture. An inspection can reveal if there is a risk because around the dryer discharge a system that has been serviced is unlikely to have an oil coated frame. An air tank water and protection and check valve inspection is a secondary means of verifying maintenance, but both require the buyer to get beneath the coach.

We have hammered on this site for a long time about how valuable service documents are. There is no standard way of listing all service, but anything ranging from log books to a pile of receipts is going to tell the story of a coach. The sad part of this is I know converters who take coaches in trade will throw away all records of a coach’s history. I don’t know why they do that. Until buyers walk away from coaches without service documentation sellers will not recognize the importance of a buyer knowing a coach history.

[Brady]

Jon,

Great post and great information. We have had several no follow ups at all to service history requests.

I guess there are enough buyers out there that are not PC members. I hope everyone realizes and appreciates

what a huge benefit this site is and more so this community. The commradery and willingness to help each

other is fantastic and unheard of in this day and age. We would not be looking for a Prevost if not for this

site and these great members. I can not thank Tom and Jon and all the members and sponsors enough.

Received the VIN Vin: 2PCM33402T1025978 today.

Those numbers make much more sense. The “P” indicates Prevost, the “M” indicates XL motorhome shell, the first

zero indicates a 40′, the “T” indicates shell year 1996,and the last four are the sequential coach numbers for all

XL coaches 1996 and up.

Still no service info. We will be in Pittsburgh at the end of the month, and might go the few hours more for a look

in person.

[John]

John,

You can take Jon’s recommendations to heart. If the coach has no maintenance records, you can easily spend $50,000 plus to have it zeroed out–I speak from experience! Also the ad stated the coach has disc brakes. XL Prevosts of that vintage had drum brakes on the drive axle, and discs in front and tag–so not totally correct. Have you considered the coaches listed on this website? There are some 40-footers with extensive documentation in the vintage and the price range you appear to be looking. Keep in mind if you don’t have to spend a lot of money zeroing out a coach, you can use that money for things like replacing furniture, new carpet or wood flooring, or whatever else you would want to do to personalize the coach.

[Peter]

Per,

Thanks for the reply. We enjoyed meeting you and Margrit at the Know Your Prevost Seminar at ETLC

last October. We have also enjoyed your posts about your experiences with your Prevost Coach.

Unfortunately for us, one of the deal breaker features for us is a private bath. Hopefully just like you and Margrit,

we will align “THE” coach and the deal and begin our own Prevost travels. Until then, we will keep reading and

listening and learning. So much to learn.

[Per]

John,

Because of its appearance in terms of showing some care by previous owners I would not rule out the Royale. Pictures do not necessarily show signs of wear and tear, or if it smells like old cigars but the only way to really know if the coach will work for you is to see it in person.

Assuming the dealer has no maintenance history available to you presents a problem for you both. You need some way of knowing you are not going to pour a lot of money into needed maintenance, or you have to adjust what you are willing to spend. He has to prove to you everything is current or he is going to have to reduce the price or watch you walk out the door.

It is not likely a lot of his customers ignore the colors and decor and instead concentrate on the quality of the coach and its maintenance history. I wouldn’t cut the dealer any slack with respect to either producing service records or allowing you to get the coach checked out. If he is not willing to understand the potential costs associated with the lack of records or complete access for inspection he shouldn’t be selling coaches.

[Archived]

Jon,

We have learned to not trust pictures. One can never be sure how old the pictures really are. We have looked at

coaches that looked good in pictures, but were not so good in person, especially in the smells & leaks department.

I am concerned there are no pictures of the engine or bays. There is a Detroit shop about 30 miles away. The

dealership claims to be “full service”, if they won’t let us bring the coach somewhere, would you let them produce

the codes for the engine and transmission? Is that something they could do while we were there that could be

printed? For a coach of this vintage and mileage, are there certain codes we want or do not want to see?