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COACH COMPLEXITY
Since a couple of issues have had to be recently addressed on my coach relating to the electrical and electronic systems and devices, and since there is another thread relating to older coaches and the need to find some critical components I thought I would see how owners feel about the systems.
We have two members who have bought or who are buying new coaches. Their coaches are going to be absolutely loaded with systems and devices that do what we used to do with a switch, dial or knob. Without a doubt the systems on the new coach are far more capable than any before them, will likely be a dream to understand and operate once learned, and like all technology the systems are going to be more reliable than any before them. But like all coaches they will age, their systems will no longer be the current technology and at some point the owner of those coaches will assume financial responsibility for repairs.
It is no surprise I do not embrace technology for the sake of technology. Why make an electrical signal travel through a myriad of devices just to turn on a light when a switch will do? Why do we need touch screens all over the coach, or to operate our AC units from a smart phone when we have a perfectly fine control panel located right next to the AC unit?
Don’t get me wrong, some advances are truly advances. A multiplex system that uses a number of modules to control all systems not only saves complexity by eliminating a great number of relays, circuit breakers, fuses and hundreds of feet of wires not only makes the coach lighter and less complex, it provides benefits for everything from pre-trip inspections to diagnostics, to safety not readily avalable with switch, wire and relay systems.
But have coaches crossed the line? Are the touch screen devices on 10 or 15 year old coaches readily available? Is there support for the dedicated printed circuit boards? Is there a source for parts or devices? What about the codes that were or are proprietary? Don’t get me wrong. These systems I am talking about have all been highly reliable, well done and have the promise of decades of use with few if any problems. But when something does fail is the system supported?
Am I alone in my preference for a light switch in the area the lights serve? Do I really need a touch screen to open a pocket door?
This is not intended to trash or criticize the converters. They are serving the buyers of new coaches and they know their customer’s preferences. Or do they?
BTW, just so there is no misunderstanding when I am stumped on my Liberty I am a phone call away from a solution. It is so rare that my coach has problems with the systems described above I really never feel compelled to fully learn how to fix something on it because I know I would forget by the time the next problem (if any) rolls around. What I am questioning is has our technology gone beyond what is necessary or even easy?
Control of TV and audio systems is not a part of this question because the systems that control them with a touch screen for example make so much sense I would never want to give that feature up.
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30 Replies
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Later
bv
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Because of the age of my coach I do not have most of the complexities of the later coaches and frankly I am happy about that. One of the complex aspects I do have that I could do without is all of the relays for the lighting. Simple switches to turn lights off and on would be fine with me.
Davy
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Al,
Can you believe Bernie put a picture of himself on the forum! I took his picture in Polson and he ran over my camera with his golf car..
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I was in Marathon shop at Dallas, TX. yesterday.
Wondering around the shop I stopped seeing a tech working on a small cigar box like container with about 50 wires inside. The rebuilding of a component used in a lighting system had failed due to another part failure. The part which caused the problem was still available in the market. The other was not.
Marathon’s solution is rebuilding from the ground up. A very costly cure to the problem, but with little choice for the owner.
Marathon has techs there that do understand complex difficultly of this type of repair.
Jon has made a point which as buses age making repairs to enjoy the push a button features will be more common.
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I can see some of the simplicity (if you can call it that) in having a touch pad as it controls most everything (generator on/off, lighting, awnings, front door air floor cover, etc.). It does make me realize how manual the Monaco was in comparison and I thought that was fancy at the time with the lighted multiplex switches, etc.
In the Prevost, there are ‘hard-wired’ switches for the kitchen, in both bathrooms and some in the bedroom if you need lights when you have to get up in the night. You can control both air doors (bathroom and bedroom doors) from the back bath panel.
The only thing that takes getting used to is the I-pad for the TV functions. It takes just a little more thinking as we are so used to using a remote which still requires that you hit the right button.
I love the air valves for the sewer…..oh, and the air seat…. I will never want to stop driving. I feel like Christmas came early.
Mark
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as coaches become more complex with automatic systems, they also become more expensive when they become 10 years or older. The chassis is built with maybe a easy 20 year life span. The house computer systems become out dated and no longer supported, therefore creating major expense for the owner in the 15 +- year range.
Therefore if someone is looking for a 10 to 14 year old coach they could be potentially into a big system update exposure depending on the complexity of the hous systems.
It almost looks to me like when you get into the year 2000 you start getting more complex house systems which a potential buyer better take into serious consideration when valuing the coach purchase price .
I’m with Davy on the complex systems, less is more for me, but it seems 2000 and newer have more automation than pre 2000.
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Be nice driver or I’ll show everybody a picture of you.
What’s up with the Queen BA? They run you out of Coburg and now your in Dallas?
Later
bv -
As the complexity of a product approaches infinity the time between failures approaches zero.
For me, simple as possible. That has different meanings for different people. I want more comfort than an air mattress and a propane heater. I
don’t have a need for a control pad that controls every light and
system in the coach at the entrance door, the driver area, the kitchen,
the bathroom and one on each side of the bed. All that control
requires a box that spreads across the front wall of the first bay. That
box is filled with proprietary circuit boards and relays that was designed by a
company who is now out of business. One rocker switch per light is fine
with me and one generator control panel. It’s not like I have to walk
several 1000 feet out in the cold to turn a light off or stop/start the
generator. That’s one reason I like this old Angola, it’s reasonably simple. Although who ever did the wiring, it must have been their first day on the job. Most of it is poorly routed, some was dangerously routed and the plumbing was not much better. I’ve made improvements but it’s still not my ldeal of a professional job.Ken
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Ok, so I’m totally jealous of anyone who can buy a new coach and all the technology that goes with it, but there is definitely something to be said for the simpler systems. In all the years I owned my ’90 XL Country Coach with all hard wired switches and doors we had to push, we never had an electronic glitch inside the house. Sure we had to walk over to the switch to turn on the lights and had to set the temps on multiple thermostats, but it was easy and really, the bus just isn’t that big so it’s never very far to walk. Now I have multiplex lighting controls, so if we forget to turn off a light in the salon I can shut it off from bed. That’s nice, but that luxury is perhaps not worth the trouble of maintaining a huge panel of relays and switch gear. My bus is nowwhere near as complex as anything being built these days.
The real adverse affect of the ever increasing complexity of systems and gradual obsolecence of the systems is not on the buyers of new coaches. The systems will likely be trouble free or at least maintainable while they own the bus. So there is no incentive for the converters to do anything other than meet the market demand by increasing the luxury and comfort, and thus complexity of the conversions they sell. After all, the features are what distinguishes one converter from another. The real impact of the system complexity is not on the original buyers, but on the poor schmucks like me who buy second hand. Those second and third owners are the ones that will have to deal with problems that crop up. However, it seems to me that at some point the used market will react to the issues regarding maintainance of legacy systems, and conversions with the more problematic or costly to maintain systems will start to sell for significantly less. That could trickle back upstream and cause new buyers to insist on simpler systems for enhanced resale reasons, but it will take a long time.
My $2.
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quote So there is no incentive for the converters to do anything other than meet the market demand by increasing the luxury and comfort, and thus complexity of the conversions they sell. unquote I do not agree with that.
Reason being, IMHO, it is not the buyer who is demaning the complexity. It is the converter who is selling it to you.
I have had this discussions and argument with boat sellers many times at boat shows. They try to convince you that the boat features they are demonstrating is the latest buyers have asked for.
Yet, it really are the designers who come up with all of it. They design something that THEY like because it is different from the competition. Yet, it has nothing at all to do with what the buyer would want.
If regular hard wired wall switches were the only thing that is available, nobody would demand that this be replaced with a multiplex system.
However, such a system can be added relatively easily by an experienced converter AND BE SOLD to you for a ZILLION Dollars.
I am totally convinced that the market buys what the converter is putting out. It is not the buyer who asks for the complexity. The buyer is presented with it. Take it or leave it.
Cheers,
Ronald
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Boateral is in Dallas getting an ABS dash light fixed. It has come on and off with a mind of its own.
The sensor causing the problem is located inside the differential housing. This will now be changed to an outboard mount tomorrow.
Another thing fixed is a leaking seal at the outbound shaft of the Allison Trans.
Here is the plug mounted on the differential / rear end. Prevost laptop plugged into bus showed 95 hits which triggered the dash light. That number is max number stored. Other side showed 1 hit.
Inside the differential a disk is mounted on the axle and that is where the part failure is. It’s a poor design and has caused many customers frustration with the dash light mainly with commercial operators.
Ronald…. Here is an example of a not well design. With this sensor mounted inside a closed system thus causing the unknowing buyer thousands of dollars of labor charges to repair. ABS system are important to controlled braking and probably saved thousands of injuries to drivers. As everything mechanical it will need service in its lifetime.
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I am right there with you Jon.
My 99 CC has all the mother, daughter boards and the ECC cabinet. All that is great but now that it is 15 years old, it ain’t so great. The one sure solution I know would be a new coach.
What some may not think of is the cost of these systemss as apposed to regular switches.
I would rather have had a regular light switch that I can buy at any hardware store anywhere in the USA instead of paying a few hundred dollars to do the same thing that the $100 hardware store switch would have done.
By the time you add up the cost of all the switches and devices that are turned off and on by these relays and iPhone and iPads your cost in the coach has increased to who knows what.
What is the cost of a Liberty or a Mallenium with all these bells and whistles as compared to a coach with regular light switches or on off switches, 25,000, 50,000. I don’t really know cause I am not in the league.
They are mighty glitsy and glamorous and work well but as Jon said, what about 10 or 15 years from now.
Like Crestron, you have to pay a real premium for programing just to add a new TV or Sat.
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One thing I should have made clear is the distinction between having features in a coach, and how those features are controlled.
Mr. Mark pointed out how he enjoys having air operated dump valves. That is a feature I enjoy as well because there are times when it is nice to be able to dump the tank without leaving the coach, such as when it is raining out. The distinction however is doing it by means of a switch directly connected to a solenoid valve, or a touch screen that causes the signal to go through multiple layers of electronic devices before delivering the electrical current to the solenoid valve.
I like the fact I can operate the valve from a touch screen. Just like I really appreciate the fact I can operate my TV and all its sources from a touch screen. There is a real convenience to that. But what is the cost going to be as my coach continues to age? Is someone eventually going to be rewiring the systems as Al pointed out?
Are we better off with all of our coach’s features controlled by simple serviceable devices (switches and relays) which need to be serviceable because they really will fail, or are we better off with electronic controls that minimize the numbers of switches, relays, wires, etc but that are not simple service items when they fail?
Amen to the reprogramming anytime a TV is replaced.
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I agree with Jon , I am ok with turning a switch on for the light or pulling a pocket door shut or pulling down a blind by hand but it is nice to do all the things from the bedroom panel lock doors put awing in turn all lights off and tv’s close pocket doors but could live with out it!!!!
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I have a much greater comfort level with the complexity because given some time it is likely if I cannot figure out stuff a real mechanic or technican can.
Where I get real uncomfortable is when obsolesence rears its ugly head and all of a sudden I cannot get a touch screen or other device that makes the system function.
I can still recreate a 1950 Ford from parts readily available even though I haven’t seen a 1950 Ford on the road in years other than mine. But I cannot buy DDEC I.
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