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Converters who no longer convert Prevost?
I wonder why some of the successful converters of Prevost have gone the plastic coach direction?
Did the sales for a superior coach become insufficient to maintain the production of these coaches?
Did these converters fail to upgrade to new technology that allowed others to excel in their product offering?
Some of the new technology is propriety and places challenges on the owners when there are issues.
It should be a requirement for all technical diagnosis and troubleshooting to be made public should one find himself in a remote location with a problem.
The royale has a great review on forums and RV websites, a 1998 sells for 5 times a 2000 to 2010 competitor due to the superior quality of the coach.
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19 Replies
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GMJDW,
Today’s market for Prevost conversions is abysmal compared to what it was prior to the economic tummy ache around 2007/2008.
But even in better times converters came and went for all the reasons businesses survive, fail and change direction. But when the economy tanked marginal converters didn’t have a chance because nobody was buying. There is no need to list those who existed and those who survived, but it was a bloodbath.
There is clearly a small market for Prevost conversions, and the converters are serving that market which appears to embrace the complex technologies used in those conversions. It appears people who want less complex coaches are unwilling to spend the money it would cost to build today’s equivalent of a Royale or other less complex conversions.
Keep in mind even of someone created a robust simple house, today’s Prevost chassis is a very technical one and it involves systems that are highly developed and that take special skills to service.
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Just a side note….John Walker Outlaw/Emerald has been building the Emerald for a few years now. He kinda took a page from Royal as it is a simpler less custom conversion. Be interesting to know how many have been sold. Geo.
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Who do you propose would should make it a requirement for that? “It should be a requirement for all technical diagnosis and troubleshooting to be made public should one find himself in a remote location with a problem.”
I’m not sure I understand your point that I’ve underlined: “The royale has a great review on forums and RV websites, a 1998 sells for 5 times a 2000 to 2010 competitor due to the superior quality of the coach.”
From my casual observations a top end, plastic, sticks n staples RV lists/sells for either side of a million dollars. The list prices I’ve seen on Prevost conversions from the three primary converters are very close to $3 million, probably selling new from the converter for around $2.75 million, maybe less. The Outlaw/Emerald runs around what Geo … $1.75 million give or take.
Last I heard a new Prevost shell is $600 to $700 thousand. So that is where things start.
Is there a market for a new Prevost luxury motor coach in the middle? Something either side of Emerald/Outlaw? Maybe. But the market is slim, skinny. The barriers to entry (capital investment, assembling expertise, engineering and design, etc) are steep. Then at the end of the day can real money be made, can the upfront sunk costs be recouped? Or are the creators of the product just working for wages and not getting compensated for the risk.
The economy is good, stock market strong. Apparently the demands are being pretty well filled.
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I’ll piggy back on a point Dick made.
I’m a former manufacturer and I succeeded by producing what the customer wanted. The coaches we have today, and have had through the years were built because those who bought new coaches wanted what the converters are building and selling.
Those of us in the secondary market (used coach buyers) have no standing to tell converters how or what to build, or how they are supposed to support the coach.
Going even further, and likely to really piss off a lot of folks I do not think it would be wise for converters to share technical information, not only because it cost a lot of money and effort to do the design work, but a lot of owners could have just enough knowledge with that information to screw up a perfectly good coach. It is OK for owners to not know every nuance of their coach. They are complex and require a wide range of skills. If I were converting coaches, apart from not wanting to share information with my competitors I would not want some people to even touch a coach with tools, including laptops or screwdrivers.
This site has a lot of very smart and capable people and we who read the site quickly recognize these owners do a lot of independent study of their coach, they develop independently sources of information, sources of materials and parts, and they have the skills to spin a wrench.
But others (the honest ones) know enough that they need to rely on experts who are skilled at working on the chassis or the conversion. When they seek advice it is often to understand the source of an issue so they know who and where to take the coach for service.
Both extremes are owners. So are all of those in the middle who have some knowledge and understanding and who may tackle an issue, but know their limits. If you expect converters to provide technical service information then you have to explain who those instructions are going to be written for. Do technical or service manuals get written for everyone, those with a reasonable skill level or those who are highly skilled?
Nope, what is out there in the market is what we get to choose from, new or used. If we think somehow our needs aren’t being met our options are plastic RVs, boats, planes or some other activity other than travel.
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gmjdw, where to you get your #s? Maybe I am misunderstanding you? The ratio I see is roughly 2 to 1.
Monaco produced a “few” Prevost Royale’s, and a “whole lot” of tag axle plastic coaches(Signatures & Executives). Both came off Monaco assembly lines at the same time. I’ve owned 4 different tag axle plastic Monaco’s(Signatures and Executive). I continue to keep an eye on their resale market. I’ve owned 1 Prevost(see my signature) and I watch that market too.
New in 1998, a Monaco 45′ Royale(Prevost XL chassis) cost roughly $1 mil., and a new 1998 Monaco 45′ Signature(Roadmaster chassis) cost about $450k, or half as much. Today the Monaco Prevost Royale has a resale of about $125k, and the Monaco Signature has a resale value of $75k.
Monaco has gone broke and/or changed ownership at least two times in the last 19 yrs. Prevost is still building shells, but very few of the converters have survived.
Today, a half million $ will buy a new plastic MH, but one million dollars won’t come anywhere close to buying a new converted Prevost H3 or XL.
America has had 2 major economic downturns in the last 20 yrs. Both had a negative impact on consumer discretionary items. Sometimes they don’t bounce back. Especially the custom built MH market evidently.
There are a few of us that prefer KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid). That was why I bought a Liberty “Classic”, which is similar to a Royale. Another reason was Liberty Coach has had the same ownership all these yrs. This took some of the scareyness away when I switched flavors like I did.
You have to ask, “did the converters let the consumer price themselves out of the market”? Maybe the converters should have kept it simple? -
Bus conversion is to a great extent all about one-ups-manship.
I won’t get into details but there are a lot of features of new coaches that are as practical as tits on a rain barrel, but provide serious bragging rights.
A long time ago a converter who was proud of their product once told me a Royale was a great starter coach. At the time I thought that was an arrogant condescending description and I still do.
I vote with those who like simplicity, but the reality is nothing is simple anymore and it is getting worse. Don’s Classic and Royale coaches are great examples of well built, robust, honest coaches that did not need a lot of the gee whiz stuff on coaches of today. But the market doesn’t seem to agree.
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Yes I can see that now. I spent a number of yrs in the Factional Jet Ownership game as a pilot. Generally speaking, the bigger the jet, the bigger the ego riding in the back, and etc. One-up-manship on the fbo ramp.
But not always,
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I think the simple aspects of a coach are a benefit in today’s world where lack of skilled repairmen are becoming the norm.One has to travel to a location that has quality repair facilities.
I am getting ready to travel 13 hours to go to Jeff’ in Tennessee for service on my coach for alignment and verification of suspension components.
All the local truck shops say they will not repair suspension parts but willing to do an alignment. How do you align without correcting suspension parts?
I take exception to the comment that a Royale was a great starter coach. I find it to be built with great precision and quality of materials.
The technology items can be overboard. My coach has air dump controls for black and grey water. Another person looking at the coach said that is a lot of mechanism for accomplishing a simple pull up and push down on the dump valve.AS to value I saw a 2011 Tiffin wit 22000miles listed for 19500.
A Prevost of 1996 to 2000 sells far more than that.
I am not really asking the converters to divulge technology secrets just give data that the owner can have as a basis for addressing a problem in podunk wherever and be able to get the coach to a repair facility and tell them in a reasonable terms what is wrong.
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Jeff can check the suspension, however he cannot do alignments. I don’t want to dissuade you from the opportunity to work with ETLC for a coach service program, but I would urge you to take it to Prevost Car in Nashville for the suspension check and alignment. They are highly skilled at doing alignments and you will be very pleased.
You should understand your Royale is about as simple as a coach gets. That is not a criticism but a statement of fact. As constructed the average person with some basic skills can probably learn and maybe even repair just about any system or device on that coach. The Prevost web site lists operating and technical manuals for all of the parts that go into making the chassis, and the operating or service manuals for almost every house appliance or device can be found on line with a little searching. There is no need for computers, and in fact a screw driver, wrench and multitester may be all that is needed to do almost anything.
I doubt if a plastic coach would be any simpler, and the difference between the Prevost conversion and a plastic coach is mostly going to be related to how robust the Prevost and house conversion is, compared to the typical plastic coach.
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There is 10 times more information available about Prevost conversions than your average high end RV. I was surprised to see all the maintenance information for 25 year old coaches on the Prevost website. Simply unheard of today. And you can still order parts for these coaches! Unbelievable.
Now, there are complex parts of our coach such as Marathon Techlink that are not documented. It is essentially a proprietary multiplexed serial communication system built by Techlon. The system is still supported by Marathon and the original contractor but ten years from now, who knows?
Same issues with all new cars and trucks. In the CAN bus era, these vehicles have become a complex network of serial buses, controllers and computers. Try to have some weird CAN bus issue repaired on a 10 year old Ferrari. Or pick any other brand. You’ll be in for a shock.
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96 – 00 XL’s selling for more than 195K, send us those buyers, yippee.
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I read it as $19,5000 nineteen five
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Wondering there is no market for a “lower” priced new prevost coach as the depreciation curve is so steep. I would think a person would be more inclined to buy a 2 year old heavy depreciated “premium” coach such as a Marathon that a new “basic” prevost converted coach for about the same amount.
I don’t think there is ever a way to compare a Prevost converted coach with a Stick and Staple coach. I am part owner of a RV repair shop and have seen the garbage they put out. Yes, even the Monaco’s. Try to solve an electric problem on one of them. Good luck. Absolute 0 support from the MFG, and a bundle of 100’s unmarked wires. This said, most of the electric failures are caused by screws in wires and steel holes without grommets.
I sold my 2016 Jayco Super C on a Freighliner M2 chassis and bought a 1998 Marathon. Could not be happier.
1999 XLV X-6872, liberty #440 -
One thing I will never ever understand is the lack of retained value. First of all that is the elephant in the room. Nobody wants to talk about it, but every owner knows about depreciation.
It would be a reasonably close estimate that a new coach has a market value of around 50% of its purchase price in 3 or 4 years. While the second buyer is getting a virtually new coach at that time, a great deal of what was paid is lost in a 3 or 4 year period.
But even when the coach value loss slows down that loss of market value continues towards very low levels.
But that does not make sense. For discussion let’s presume a 15 year old Prevost conversion is worth perhaps 15% of the cost of a new replacement. Don’t nit pick my numbers because I am just guessing at them. That 15 year old coach if anywhere near typical will not have much more than 125,000 miles on it and in terms of the life of the chassis it has used up only about 10 or 15% of its life. It might therefore be safe to say for 15% of replacement cost a buyer is getting 85% of the chassis life.
The house portion is similarly used up. Converters do an excellent job of providing quality construction in everything from cabinetry to seating areas to systems, but those 15 year old furnishings and systems like the chassis will show some wear and soiling, but they continue to provide excellent service.
Spend $50,000 on a 15 year old coach and except for paint it can be brought into an almost new condition. And yet the market fails to value how much life remains on older coaches.
There are evolutionary changes that the marketplace has recognized as added value and they will definitely bring more money to the table. A coach with an 8V92 doesn’t command the price of a comparable coach with a Series 60. While some buyers go out of their way to try to find a 40 foot coach there was no question they placed a higher value on 45 foot coaches. Ditto with slides versus non-slide coaches.
We Prevost owners somehow are not able to get buyers to consider value as much as we would like buyers to do that. There are a lot of 20 to 30 year old Prevost coach conversions out there and most of them could not be duplicated to the quality level they have for anywhere near what some of them are selling for. Maybe the complex technology of newer coaches is so important to buyers they are not willing to pay fair prices for coaches without that technology.
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There is only one way to buy a million dollar Prevost motorhome for $125,000.
Buy it when it’s 15 years old.
As I’ve told people who aren’t familiar with Prevost Luxury motorhomes … they were (and continue to be) built with the best chassis, drivetrain, components, engineering, and construction practices that money can buy.
That’s why they hold the value that they do.
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